People seem to be failing at reading the rule.

"If the race ends while the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."

The important part being here:

"it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."

..which is exactly what happened. And exactly what Schumacher didn't do. So he was punished as per the rule, where's the confusion? All this nonsense about safety car lines and flags is completely irrelevant. It's right there written in the rule, black and white, no gray whatsoever.

But it could have been coming in because the track was clear, rather than because the race was finishing under SC; the former indicated by the green flags being waved. Thus Michael's move would have been legal.

@ Mythdat

Exactly.

Quote from J@tko :

But it could have been coming in because the track was clear, rather than because the race was finishing under SC; the former indicated by the green flags being waved. Thus Michael's move would have been legal.

God people Read the rules, if the safety car starts the last lap, then there's no overtaking till the end, no matter what he does and what flags are waved.

Quote from mythdat :

People seem to be failing at reading the rule.

"If the race ends while the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."

The important part being here:

"it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."

..which is exactly what happened. And exactly what Schumacher didn't do. So he was punished as per the rule, where's the confusion? All this nonsense about safety car lines and flags is completely irrelevant. It's right there written in the rule, black and white, no gray whatsoever.

HHmm... It depends on how you interpret the rules and whether you think it's right for drivers to ignore flags.

That rule is there to describe an instance where the race ends under SC conditions like with Button last year at Australia. The SC will pull in for the nice TV camera shots. No one wants a SC in the way.

Where the rule become muddled up is that the safety car on Sunday was called in on the last lap. So whether the race ended when the SC was still deployed is debatable. The green flags and a lack of SC boards suggested the race did NOT end under SC conditions. The race did NOT end when the SC was deployed.

In my opinion if the flag is green you are good to go racing. If then you are punished because you broke a rule which was clearly not being enforced, acknowledged, or even valid, you have a case to appeal. Brawn has a very good case because what the stewards did was almost entrapment. This is certainly not a open and shut case. The more I read the rule the more shocked I am they punished Schumi

Quote from Boris Lozac :

God people Read the rules, if the safety car starts the last lap, then there's no overtaking till the end, no matter what he does and what flags are waved.

That not what the literal interpretation of the rules say, and if that is indeed the intention it's a ridiculously round-about way of saying it. Hence the confusion.

The SC was also called in at Australia last year. Big difference was that it didn't matter whether it came in or flew to the moon there was no overtaking until the s/f line, and that was the end of the race.

There is no such Rule 40.19.

Ignore the rules, or ignore the flags? Just choose one..

Quote from Intrepid :

The green flags and a lack of SC boards suggested the race did NOT end under SC conditions. The race did NOT end when the SC was deployed.

In my opinion if the flag is green you are good to go racing. If then you are punished because you broke a rule which was clearly not being enforced, acknowledged, or even valid, you have a case to appeal.

it must be a very cold day in hell but anyway i agree with you

FIA Rules regarding the matter:

Quote :

40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

The rule which Michael supposedly fell foul of.

Quote :

40.11 When the clerk of the course decides it is safe to call in the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" will be displayed on the timing monitors and the car's orange lights will be extinguished This will be the signal to the teams and drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap.
At this point the first car in line behind the safety car may dictate the pace and, if necessary, fall more than ten car lengths behind it.
...
As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the yellow flags and SC boards will be withdrawn and replaced by waved green flags with green lights at the Line. These will be displayed until the last car crosses the Line.

Green flags flew thus, by the rules, the SC was coming in that lap and Michael's move was legal.

EDIT: Green lights were on too, as well as green flags.

Quote from boothy :

The SC was also called in at Australia last year. Big difference was that it didn't matter whether it came in or flew to the moon there was no overtaking until the s/f line, and that was the end of the race.

I don't know if it was called in or not. It certainly HAS to come in regardless of course. But there is a difference to coming in for the photo opportunity and then the stewards calling it in and showing green flags. What I do know is they continually waved yellow flags and had the SC boards out in Australia. This did not happen in Monaco.

Green means good to go racing and what the FIA are saying here is that you should ignore the flags. You wouldn't expect a driver to ignore a yellow if he felt there was no hazard.

One thing is for sure. Schumi is back Hamilton must be relieved to have the stewards/media off his back for once.

Quote from Intrepid :

I don't know if it was called in or not. It certainly HAS to come in regardless of course. But there is a difference to coming in for the photo opportunity and then the stewards calling it in and showing green flags. What I do know is they continually waved yellow flags and had the SC boards out in Australia. This did not happen in Monaco.

Green means good to go racing and what the FIA are saying here is that you should ignore the flags. You wouldn't expect a driver to ignore a yellow if he felt there was no hazard.

One thing is for sure. Schumi is back Hamilton must be relieved to have the stewards/media off his back for once.

^^ Plus last year you couldn't overtake before SF line, this year you can after SC line.

.......

Quote :

As of the start of the 2010 season, drivers are now allowed to pass (once the Safety Car pulls in) after the Safety Car line, as opposed to in previous years when overtaking was not permitted until passing the start line.

However, as stated in article 40.13 of the sporting code, drivers must not overtake if the Safety Car has controlled the race on the final lap, despite the silver Mercedes sports car always returning to the pits to allow the winner to take the chequered flag.

Are we done now?

Quote from Boris Lozac :

.......

Are we done now?

That's not at all what rule 40.13 says. It says if the race ENDS under SC then there's no overtaking.

Quote :

40.4 When the order is given to deploy the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED" will be displayed on the timing monitors and all marshal's posts will display waved yellow flags and "SC" boards for the duration of the intervention.

Yellow flags and SC boards for the duration of the intervention. So by waving green flags they are saying that the SC is no longer deployed and the race is still on. The race did not finish under SC deployment.

Confused!!! Glad I don't do law!

Quote from J@tko :

That's not at all what rule 40.13 says. It says if the race ENDS under SC then there's no overtaking.

But there's an addition to that rule from THIS year, meaning the Safety Car pulls in on the finish of the final lap, it looks much better for F1 cars to be the first one to cross the line then the safety car, but EVERYTHING remains the same as if the safety car crossed it..

It's an endless argument, it's clear that the rules are shit. J@tko's post sais it all...

Quote from Boris Lozac :

But there's an addition to that rule from THIS year, meaning the Safety Car pulls in on the finish of the final lap, it looks much better for F1 cars to be the first one to cross the line then the safety car, but EVERYTHING remains the same as if the safety car crossed it..

and again

Quote :

40.4 When the order is given to deploy the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED" will be displayed on the timing monitors and all marshal's posts will display waved yellow flags and "SC" boards for the duration of the intervention.

as we can see the stewards acknoledged that the SC was no longer deployed by waving green (not yellow flags and SC boards as t40.4 suggests)



The race did not end with the SC deployed!

Quote from Boris Lozac :

But there's an addition to that rule from THIS year, meaning the Safety Car pulls in on the finish of the final lap, it looks much better for F1 cars to be the first one to cross the line then the safety car, but EVERYTHING remains the same as if the safety car crossed it..

Again I quote rule 40.13:

Quote :

40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

What should have happened [Charlie's intention] is that the SC came in on the final lap as per the rules, but still in a deployed state, i.e. yellow flags waving, yellow lights on gantry and SC boards out. What actually happened was that the green flags were shown, the green lights were on [see above picture] and the SC boards were not out thus the SC was not in a deployed state and overtaking was allowed at the last corner.

I don't deny the rules are shit, but everything is clear as butter, i don't get why everyone is so confused now.

Let's go step by step, in previous years, if the safety car started the last lap, it remains till the start/finish line, F1 cars follow it, and there's no overtaking.

From this year, it's the same rule, BUT the safety car pulls in on the finish of the last lap, so the F1 cars finish the race.

Doesn't matter that the safety car goes in, rules remain the same as if he didn't, meaning = no overtaking.

Green flags/lights are always deployed when SC goes in, but since it's last lap, and SC started it, they do not mean that racing continues, they just indicate that SC got out of the way


Clear now?? SHEESHH...

Quote from Boris Lozac :

Let's go step by step, in previous years, if the safety car started the last lap, it remains till the start/finish line, F1 cars follow it, and there's no overtaking.

From this year, it's the same rule, BUT the safety car pulls in on the finish of the last lap, so the F1 cars finish the race.

Where is this rule?

It's not here: http://www.formula1.com/inside ... regulations/8687/fia.html

Well i don't know where is it, fact is, SC now pulls in on the final lap, as you all witnessed, but NOT because the track got cleared or whatever, it's because the F1 cars should be the ones crossing the finish line first!

It's not fair Alonso loses the place because he obeyed the rules.

It's not fair Schumacher loses the place because he obeyed the flags.

Maybe give them both the points?

Quote from Boris Lozac :

Well i don't know where is it, fact is, SC now pulls in on the final lap, as you all witnessed, but NOT because the track got cleared or whatever, it's because the F1 cars should be the ones crossing the finish line first!

I'm not denying that was the case, but the green flags were flying [albeit wrongly] thus Michael could overtake. That's what the rules say.

They shouldn't have shown the green flags if that was the case. They showed the green flags. That meant the safety was not deployed. 40.13 covers an instance if the safety is STILL deployed. If it was deployed the yellow flags STILL would have been shown.

the FIA mucked up and no penalty should have been given. Certainly NOT a 20 second penalty