A rule which is now ambiguous as demonstrated above. Giving Schumacher a penalty for something that is not illegal according to the rules, is monumentally stupid. The correct course of action is to withdraw the penalty and fix the rule. Not say "screw the rules, we decide!".
A rule which is now ambiguous as demonstrated above. Giving Schumacher a penalty for something that is not illegal according to the rules, is monumentally stupid. The correct course of action is to withdraw the penalty and fix the rule. Not say "screw the rules, we decide!".
Agree totally..
A discussion on the LFS-forums resolving itself and resulting in agreement... I think I just might cry. 
The rule says nothing about if the safety car starts the last lap. It is about if the race is to finish under SC conditions. Slightly different.
Nope, their rules don't contradict one another.
Here are the two possible situations:
#1 the safety car is still deployed as the race enters the final lap. The danger is not removed, so the safety car conditions remain. In this case, the clerk of the course will not issue the message "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" and rule 40.13 will apply, the safety car will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.
#2 The safety car is still deployed as the race enters the final lap. The clerk of the course decides it is safe to race so he calls in the safety car and issues the message "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP". This means that after the safety car line, the race is no longer under safety car conditions, therefor rule 40.13 does not apply
There is nothing in the rules that says the decision to bring the safety car in due the danger passing cannot be taken on the last lap, so #2 is a perfectly valid scenario. Going by the evidence presented by Ross Brawn, this is exactly what happened. The stewards got it wrong. If their decision stands, then Mercedes and Schumacher will have been cheated
To re-iterate, the rules are not contradictory, however, they need to be more clearly stated if even the stewards cannot interpret them correctly.
cheers
Col
It doesn't matter, as we know from Spa 2 years ago you can't appeal a drive-through after the race, and that's exactly what will come of it... So now Schumacher is f*cked because the stewards can't read straight... Hill got his revenge after all...
A friend of mine cleared this some more..
When SC goes in, lights go off and green flags deploy, from this year that happens on the entrance of the pit lane/that new SC line, no matter what lap is, they always wave the flags.
And then, 40.13 says: "40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."
So, because safety car did not pulled in prior to the last lap, there's no other oportunity for it go in other then on final lap, which means, race ended under safety car, meaning no overtaking.
When SC goes in, lights go off and green flags deploy, from this year that happens on the entrance of the pit lane/that new SC line, no matter what lap is, they always wave the flags.
And then, 40.13 says: "40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."
So, because safety car did not pulled in prior to the last lap, there's no other oportunity for it go in other then on final lap, which means, race ended under safety car, meaning no overtaking.
No your friend is wrong. If the race was ending under safety car conditions they would continue to use yellow flags and boards saying "SC".
As 40.4 implies the use of green flags means the safety car is not deployed and we are back to normal racing conditions. The race did not end under safety car conditions.
The stewards have mucked up.
can i just point out that youre all defending schumacher for doing something potentially naughty
Race did end under the safety car conditions, i don't think they finished clearing all that mess on the track.. but since that gentleman rule that SC enters the pit so the F1 cars be the first one to cross the track, they have to do the whole procedure by the book, meaning waving the green flags and all, but beeing the final lap, and beeing that the SC was in the final lap during some time, it means that it did actually end under the SC conditions...
LOL my head hurts
edit: @ shotlgass
I'm not, i hate the move, just like that move Alonso did on Massa entering the pit lane, those cheaky overtakes when oponnent doesn't expect it, i hate that.. i just want this to be clarified.
Well, I see it a bit differently. If this happened on any other lap it would be a clearly legal move with no room for discussion. Alonso was also going for it (evidenced by the oversteer coming out of Rascasse) but got caught. So, it's a clever move from Scumacher, actually. That it happened on the last lap means there's some discussion about it, but it doesn't seem naughty to me and it didn't seem naughty to the BBC team at the time (including Brundle and Coulthard).
No they didn't have to wave green flags. If the race was ending under SC conditions they would continue to wave yellows. The stewards have misunderstood their own regulations.
40.13 cover the instance where they want to remove the SC from the final photo. But as soon as the track went green that activated 40.4. The race was not finishing under safety conditions from that point onwards. It ended under race conditions thus the move WAS legal.
I think people are not reading 40.13 clearly, read it carefully: "40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."
So, deap breath, when does the race ends? On the end of the final lap right... so, safety car WAS deployed on the final lap, they have to take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking, SC got in cause of the 40.13, green flags were waved because of the new SC line, but they still have to follow the 40.13 rule, green flags does not mean the same thing in that final lap, they just mean the safety car got in the pits.
In Australia they did not waved the green flags, because there was no SC line in the pits, they would wave them after the finish line..
So, deap breath, when does the race ends? On the end of the final lap right... so, safety car WAS deployed on the final lap, they have to take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking, SC got in cause of the 40.13, green flags were waved because of the new SC line, but they still have to follow the 40.13 rule, green flags does not mean the same thing in that final lap, they just mean the safety car got in the pits.
In Australia they did not waved the green flags, because there was no SC line in the pits, they would wave them after the finish line..
No, I think we're reading it very clearly. What you don't understand is that when it's announced the track is clear, the safety car is coming in and the green flags/lights are shown the race is NOT under safety car. This debate could have been shortened by a long way if you'd accept that.
No they wouldn't! If the race ended under SC conditions they would STILL wave the yellows.
40.13 means the cars will continue under SC conditions despite their being no safety car on the track like in Oz 09. However 40.4 means that if the SC comes in on the green flags are waved it means the race is no longer under SC conditions.
Race ended at the finish line! At that point flags were green and the race was NOT.. I repeat... NOT under SC conditions. And that's in accordance with 40.4
43.1 + 40.4 = Schumacher was within the rules!
But what this line means then, please clarify, i think i know english pretty well
"If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking"What is IT, other then the safety car?
You're highlighting the wrong part. The important part is this:
It's a very important point so I'll repeat it, since you're intent on mis-reading it:
Now, what's the procedure for announcing the safety car is coming in?
The marshals will wave yellow flags and SC boards during the duration of the SC deployment. As they waved green that meant the deployment was now over. The race ends at the finish line not anywhere else... so
And at that point the SC was NOT deployed meaning this -
- ruling does not come into effect as the race did not finish under SC deployment according to 40.4 and 43.1!
it's quite simple!
for the millionth time the race did end under green flag conditions how hard can it possibly be to grasp this simple concept considering there were green flags waving everywhere?
when all cars still in the running have passed the s/f line after the race leader did
simple concept really
yes but it wasnt deployed when the chequered flag fell as evident by the green flag the absence of any yellow flags or sc signs and race control annoucing that the safetycar will come in on the final lap
thats just complete bullshit youre making up rules as you go along
maybe you should apply for a position in fia they obviously rely on people like you to write the rulebooks
a green flag is a green flag and it means the race is on simple as that
@ amp88
But that line is completely confusing, as far as i know the race does not end DURING the final lap, but when the first driver covers the race distance, meaning crosses the finish line... so that sentence makes no sense at all, what does "If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed" means anyway
But that line is completely confusing, as far as i know the race does not end DURING the final lap, but when the first driver covers the race distance, meaning crosses the finish line... so that sentence makes no sense at all, what does "If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed" means anyway
OK, so when is the safety car actually deployed, according to the rules? Well, it's between this:
...and this...
Now, in this instance did 40.11 occur? Yes, it most certainly did. So, 40.13 doesn't come into effect!
clearly you dont know your english as well as you think you do
now ill give you that the rule doesnt make a whole lot of sence since its basically a temoral paradox so let me make it a little clearer by pointing out the logic behind it without the temporal impossiblity
"if race control decides that the race will end under safety car conditions the safety car will pull in on the last lap to get a better picture for the cameras"
Well, if the procedure for 40.11 was not followed (i.e. race control didn't announce the safety car was coming in, didn't retract the yellow flags and SC boards and didn't display the green flags) it wouldn't matter if the SC came into the pitlane, exploded or went into the harbour. The SC would still be "deployed" as per the rules and 40.13 would be in effect. Just because the SC is in the pitlane doesn't mean it's not "deployed", as per the rules.
There's no need to give that sarcastic talk to me, i'm putting smiley faces, i'm not playing mr. smarta** here, meaning this is a friendly discussion and i would just like to get to the bottom of this issue and to know if the punishment was deserved, i do not say i know best, i just say what i understand of this and i'm having hard time putting that into sentences since this is not my native language. You clearly have some beef on me, don't know why but whatever..
@ amp
But obviously 40.13 also comes into effect, because SC can never, ever finish the race.. so imagine this was 2009, SC car would go in, there would be no green flags because Webber didn't crossed the finish line, but because this is 2010, and there is this new SC line, they DID waved the green flags, but since it was the final lap, and 40.13 came into action, that did not mean that the racing could continue.
In 2009 Schumacher wouldn't make that move because the flags would remain yellow till the finish line.
But obviously 40.13 also comes into effect, because SC can never, ever finish the race.. so imagine this was 2009, SC car would go in, there would be no green flags because Webber didn't crossed the finish line, but because this is 2010, and there is this new SC line, they DID waved the green flags, but since it was the final lap, and 40.13 came into action, that did not mean that the racing could continue.
In 2009 Schumacher wouldn't make that move because the flags would remain yellow till the finish line.
FORMULA 1 GRAND PRIX DE MONACO 2010 (Monte Carlo)
(283 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG