What series has the best driving talent, they both have completely different cars both are regarded as one of the best what Touring car series do you think has a higher quality breed of drivers?

I would answer but im insure my self i mean V8 supercars has very good drivers and all but WTCC has some equally as good if not better drivers it self.

There's no doubt in my mind that the drivers in WTCC are, in general, higher quality than those in V8 Supercars. However, I do think that V8 Supercars are more difficult to actually drive than the cars in WTCC.

Any aussie would have to say the v8 supercars, Go Lowndes

Your really comparing a European series to a Australian series?
Really?
Each Track, Car, Condition, Climate, location. Requires a new way of thinking, you cant compare driver talent if its not a even playing field.
I dont see where your going with this but its the most stupidest comparison ever made.

Quote from AstroBoy :

Your really comparing a European series to a Australian series?
Really?
Each Track, Car, Condition, Climate, location. Requires a new way of thinking, you cant compare driver talent if its not a even playing field.
I dont see where your going with this but its the most stupidest comparison ever made.

How, there both touring car series and both are regarded as the best.

Quote from amp88 :

There's no doubt in my mind that the drivers in WTCC are, in general, higher quality than those in V8 Supercars. However, I do think that V8 Supercars are more difficult to actually drive than the cars in WTCC.

I would have to disagree there, but I cant explain why now. My keyboard just died, maybe later if I feel like it

Quote from amp88 :

There's no doubt in my mind that the drivers in WTCC are, in general, higher quality than those in V8 Supercars. However, I do think that V8 Supercars are more difficult to actually drive than the cars in WTCC.

Im not really sure that it would be clear, i mean the competetion in V8 Supercars is much closer and that usually means that everyone is close to the limit however WTCC has more manufactuers so the cars would be less equal.

imo, they can't be compared although they are both touring car series. The cars are substantially different.

I thought it was pretty obvious that it was just my opinion. I agree it's impossible to actually quantify how good the drivers are in any formal manner.

The cars are very different, and they're driven very differently, not a sound base for an objective comparison. V8s are infinitely more entertaining, however.

Driver quality aside, I tried watching Marrakech quali, but holy shit it was dull. I was intent on watching WTCC between V8s, BTCC and F1, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it (yes, I realise Marrakech was an exceptionally horrible event compared to normal WTCC races, but point stands).

As others have pointed out, you can't make an objective comparison. I expect that the quality of drivers will be similar across the board, with the WTCC having slightly better quality drivers near the top-end of the game.

The motorsport talent pool in Australia is very small compared to Europe. You have to keep that in mind. Interesting observation is that those drivers who have succeeded in international racing have been good performers in the V8SC:
Larry Perkins (Euro F3 champ, F1 GP driver)
Russell Ingall (Brit F Ford champ)
James Courtney (Brit F Ford champ, All-Jap F3 champ, F1 test driver)

Regarding driver merits DTM > WTCC > V8SC > other national touring car series

That does not mean that many DTM or WTCC drivers can learn to put competetive times in a very heavy non diffed v8sc in any short order (as shown in the endurances, most suck some do well)

Quote from heson :

Regarding driver merits DTM > WTCC > V8SC > other national touring car series

That does not mean that many DTM or WTCC drivers can learn to put competetive times in a very heavy non diffed v8sc in any short order (as shown in the endurances, most suck some do well)

DTM is more GT then Touring car IMO, the cars are 100% purpose built and have no Relevence at all to the models they replicate.

Quote from Mustafur :

...the cars are 100% purpose built and have no Relevence at all to the models they replicate.

You could also describe a V8 Supercar in exactly the same way.

...and the WTCC cars.

Quote from farcar :

You could also describe a V8 Supercar in exactly the same way.

The V8s still have the relative shape of the cars they replicate the DTM cars have flared body kits with a hell of alot more Aero.

btw I Thought WTCC was just modified chassis?

Negative. WTCC uses S2000 touring cars, which have spec sequential gearboxes (or 5-speed H-pattern with original production ratios), 2L engines, rev limits, and restricted suspension types (front and rear McPherson struts). So it's a lot more than just modified chassis.

Yes, DTM is is not a modified car, most other serieses require the body shell to be intact (DTM keeps only the roof afaik).

The problem I have with most tc serieses is that the badge is just a badge, I can't make a decision to buy a Holden or a Ford based on who wins Bathurst (except to buy whatever Lowndes is driving)

I would like to see a showroom stock series where cars were classified on purchase price. Real consumer advice. Minimal modifications, apart from the obvious roll cage, seat and belts.
Allowed to remove: cockpit trim, to compensate for the added weight of the roll cage (and limit fire hazard). Replace break pads, maybe shocks and springs. Safer gas tank. Require large series of production, and car to be available for purchase (to limit cheating with the price)
Make the races classed on Euro NCAP stars too so I be tempted to buy the fastest safe car instead of the fastest cheap car.

Showroom series do exist, but they tend to be grassroots categories (ie. almost no TV exposure) for club racers.

Unfortunate. But the reality is that manufacturers don't want people seeing their cars get flogged by rival manufacturers' cars.

Quote from samjh :

Showroom series do exist, but they tend to be grassroots categories (ie. almost no TV exposure) for club racers.

Unfortunate. But the reality is that manufacturers don't want people seeing their cars get flogged by rival manufacturers' cars.

Than they should build better cars :-)

Forgot to mention that V8SC is the purest tc series I know, since they have none of the crap that plagues the others, reverse grid, success ballast. This is huge, since the winner is the best (driver, car, team combo). Even the parity adjustments seams fair (check out WTCC for the opposite)

the V8SC's have a much bigger rivalry than the WTCC, Holden vs Ford has always been the greatest battle in australian motor racing. the WTCC has no real competive ego between each of the manufactuers.

Quote from Luttsy :

the V8SC's have a much bigger rivalry than the WTCC, Holden vs Ford has always been the greatest battle in australian motor racing. the WTCC has no real competive ego between each of the manufactuers.

Ford and Holden have a historic rivalry in Australia, yes. Current V8 Supercars have nothing to do with Ford vs Holden. Not only are the cars so far removed from production cars but they share so much common componentry and are intentionally kept balanced through Project Blueprint that it's actually team vs team rather than manufacturer vs manufacturer. The ATCC did used to have proper battles between the manufacturers (not only Ford vs Holden but a few others in there too) where the cars were actually distinct and there was development from manufacturers to compete against their rivals. Now the Ford vs Holden thing is all about marketing and keeping the appeal of the "diehard" Ford and Holden fans; it has no real bearing on the competition between cars.

Quote from amp88 :

Ford and Holden have a historic rivalry in Australia, yes. Current V8 Supercars have nothing to do with Ford vs Holden. Not only are the cars so far removed from production cars but they share so much common componentry and are intentionally kept balanced through Project Blueprint that it's actually team vs team rather than manufacturer vs manufacturer. The ATCC did used to have proper battles between the manufacturers (not only Ford vs Holden but a few others in there too) where the cars were actually distinct and there was development from manufacturers to compete against their rivals. Now the Ford vs Holden thing is all about marketing and keeping the appeal of the "diehard" Ford and Holden fans; it has no real bearing on the competition between cars.

but well that's still good enough for the diehard Ford and Holden fans already... and there're plenty of those out there in australia...

I heard they are willing to add more manufacturers for the 2012 season, Hyundai and Toyota where linked to it.

Quote from amp88 :

Now the Ford vs Holden thing is all about marketing and keeping the appeal of the "diehard" Ford and Holden fans; it has no real bearing on the competition between cars.

yeah i get what you mean, but regardless of money and who's driving for who and so on, their will still be that same rivalry.

Quote from Mustafur :

I heard they are willing to add more manufacturers for the 2012 season, Hyundai and Toyota where linked to it.

their are Toyota Aurion's in the aussie racing car series but no Hyundai's