The online racing simulator
Quote from Jakg :
My (left field) suggestion. Volvo 340? RWD and cheap to insure. Shouldn't be that hard to modify (...if your willing to get your hands dirty) and cost very very little.

Currently what I'm driving about in, very underrated, make fantastic little rally cars. My dad thought I had gone slightly mad when I told him what I had bought to replace the Lada! They're tough, very well engineered and have the high build quality you'd expect from a Volvo. The 1.4 engine that I've got is a nice gutsy engine that like to rev. I would avoid the 1.7, not as nice to drive and you'll only end up paying more in fuel and insurance to go a bit faster in a car that isn't about going fast. Clio engines (including the Williams) drop straight in so there's no point in modifying either of the standard engines if you want to go fast, the gearbox and diff unit looks like it has come off a racing car, and as it is shared with the 360 is good enough for competition use with the 1.4 engine. The propshaft is the weak link, it consists of a single aluminium tube with no supports and splined ends mounted in a rubber. I broke mine recently on a LWRNAM (for the ralliers), though I think the knackered engine mounts caused it by letting the engine move too much moving it out of line with the gearbox.

It only costs me £471 to insure as a competition car with unlimited rally miles, 5000 non-competition miles and no restrictions on modifications.

Quote from sam93 :Hmm... Just done insurance quote on one... A impreza 2.0 sport is a lot cheaper to insure for some reason. VTR/Rallye is £5k :O

One is a popular exciting hot hatch, the other is a Japanese saloon from an era when they built totally soulless cars that left the driver disconnected from the driving experience. Naturally aspirated FWD Imprezas are used on the road rally scene (where turbos and 4WD are banned) but they usually use the turbo stage rally cars as the base and the 2.5 Legacy engine.

Quote :
Only thing I can think about doing is getting a lower model one and engine transplants (keep all insurance out of this) lol.

There's no point in insuring it then.

Quote from tristancliffe :Motorsport Engineering - why not do a proper degree in Mechanical or Aeronautical Engineering?

I would disagree, although I think Brunel and Oxford Brookes are the only two institutions in the country (possibly the world given the number of international students we get) that offer a motorsport course that is a genuine IMechE accredited MEng mechanical engineering degree.

Quote from sam93 :
What would your thoughts be on doing a ZR track day car? :S

The Rover 200 makes a better base, you still get the K series without the silly bodykit and higher price tag. They make truly horrible road cars, they're popular on 1400 Endurance rallies because the engine makes them the fastest car possible within the regs.

Quote from sam93 :
Thats what I'm doing. It's not because it has motorsport in it... I want to be building/designing race cars! They are the courses, end degree they give you is BSc which I believe is Science but then you can go Bath University to do a BEng in Motorsport Engineering. So will take me 6-10yrs. So I'll be 26-27yrs old when fully qualified which most people in that game are lol.

Both Brunel and Oxford Brookes offer year long foundation courses that allow entry onto the BEng/MEng programs, by far the quickest way to get onto a decent degree, they don't require A levels, they take an awful lot of people onto them who aren't cut out to do engineering so if you can't make the cut to get onto one of them then I would give up.

To be brutally honest doing a BSc like the one you're planning to do won't help at all and will count against you when you finally get to the stage of trying to get a job, likewise those who spend years retaking/changing degree courses.

Quote from tristancliffe :
Experience is important, but modifying a road car won't gain you anything useful to employers.

I'd argue to the contrary the company (non-motorsport) I've secured a placement with took a great deal of interest in the road rallying and oval racing I've done, a personal project shows the ability to organise, manage and see things through that working for a company doesn't necessarily show.

Quote from sam93 :
After a few years I'll know whether I can move to uni after doing my foundation degree and then see if I can move to Bath University to do a BEng in Motorsport Engineering. Do you reckon that is a better path?

A much better approach would be to do a foundation course to get onto a proper course, Brookes have an open day on the 12th June, that I'm working at come along and have a look.
I want to be assembling and setting up the cars with a bit of development. So I think what I'm planning on doing is the right path.

I wouldn't mind having my own company doing bespoke car tuning. So of I can't get into a racing team that's what I would do.

Tristan, you're making it out what I'm doing will get me no where, if it didn't get you no where no one will be applying for the course
Quote from sam93 :Tristan, you're making it out what I'm doing will get me no where, if it didn't get you no where no one will be applying for the course

You're under the illusion that a course means it'll do what it says on the tin.

Do you think doing a degree in The History of Ideas would get you anywhere in life? No is the answer to that question, yet people still apply for the course.

It is a Mickey Mouse degree for kids who aren't smart enough to do Mechanic Engineering and the like.
Ffs instead of asking you lot I'll go to the actual race teams and ask.

I'll do the foundation course where I'm going which will be in 3 yrs and then take me 2yrs to complete after that I'll go to Brunel well try... Or try to get in after doing a national diploma in motorsport.
Quote from P5YcHoM4N :You're under the illusion that a course means it'll do what it says on the tin.

Do you think doing a degree in The History of Ideas would get you anywhere in life? No is the answer to that question, yet people still apply for the course.

It is a Mickey Mouse degree for kids who aren't smart enough to do Mechanic Engineering and the like.

You can be smart but shit at the job. I'm not very smart but will be better than the smart twats. I hate people who use the stereotype you have just used.

I'll get there and I ****ing will.
Quote from sam93 :I'm wanting to design the car/engine but yes I am also a hands on person as I'm also good with my hands.

Good at skinnin' the carrot.
Quote from ajp71 :I'd argue to the contrary the company (non-motorsport) I've secured a placement with took a great deal of interest in the road rallying and oval racing I've done, a personal project shows the ability to organise, manage and see things through that working for a company doesn't necessarily show.

I'd agree if Sam wasn't talking about fitting a K&N filter and maybe an off-the-shelf turbo kit to a hatchback to tootle around Castle Combe with. His project has no value to motorsport. Yours does (although yours wouldn't help with F1 applications either )

Quote from sam93 :I want to be assembling and setting up the cars with a bit of development. So I think what I'm planning on doing is the right path.

You need to work your way up the ladder. Get a FFord team to the championship in your first year with them. Then go to F3. Then GP2. Then F1.....[/quote]

Quote from sam93 :I wouldn't mind having my own company doing bespoke car tuning. So of I can't get into a racing team that's what I would do.

Either way, you'll want decent race experience to do either well.

Quote from sam93 :Tristan, you're making it out what I'm doing will get me no where, if it didn't get you no where no one will be applying for the course

Interesting triple negative I think...
People apply for the course because they're attracted by the course. Whether or not F1 teams want general engineers or talented, specialised Engineers (note the use of capitals, as I did it on purpose) doesn't factor into the choice of most.

Look at the really clever people in F1 (young and old) and see what courses they did and where... and what ladder(s) they climbed.
Quote from sam93 :Tristan, you're making it out what I'm doing will get me no where, if it didn't get you no where no one will be applying for the course

It might get you somewhere, but Motorsports Engineering will hardly get you where you want to.

Go for a "proper" BSc/BEng in Engineering; you'll have a much better chance.

I was planning on BEng Motorsports Engineering at Kingston (Yea, yea, aint the best Uni...), but I swtiched to BEng Automotive Engineering Design as the degree wasn't accredited.

I pretty much had the same ideas as you're having; doing Motorsports and get into F1 (or similar). As mentioned already, that highly unlikely. You're much better off focusing on something like Aero of Mech engineering; it'll allow you to be flexible in the long run.

E: Sam actually try and read into what some people here are saying.
Quote from P5YcHoM4N :You're under the illusion that a course means it'll do what it says on the tin.

Do you think doing a degree in The History of Ideas would get you anywhere in life? No is the answer to that question, yet people still apply for the course.

It is a Mickey Mouse degree for kids who aren't smart enough to do Mechanic Engineering and the like.

Finally you answered my question on how to get to f1.

The car question was just something to start off as track days as I'll need it to get around in also. Nothing to do with helping me get a job or progress through the course with. Just something to do in spare time.

Trying to get things through some of you is like getting blood out of a stone lmao
#60 - Vain
Just a friendly comment:
I don't think there is any one person in any larger company/project that does both the design and the assembly.
Either you're the one who has the theoretical idea and puts it to paper, studies it and evaluates it (e.g.: The scientist who came up with the idea of VVT)
or you are the one who takes the (now proven) theoretical concept and puts it into a design (e.g.: The engineer at Honda working on VTEC)
or you are the person that assembles it (the guys at floor level with the wrenches in their hands).

Any project that involves more than 10 people will have people especially educated for their specific task. As a combined scientist-engineer-mechanic you can't beat any of them at their respective job.

I'd suggest that you go for the engineering job and develop your mechanical skills as a pastime. That might even get you into F1.

I hope that helped.

Vain
I'll deffo ask race teams as it'll be an actual real answer and not what people on here think when they probably haven't tried...

I've read the success stories people have had doing just these courses I'm doing and they have got into btcc/wrc/ff/f3/gp2 etc...

So it can't be crap and pointless what you people are making it out to be
Quote from sam93 :You can be smart but shit at the job. I'm not very smart but will be better than the smart twats. I hate people who use the stereotype you have just used.

I'll get there and I ****ing will.

The use of twats after the word smart tells me right away the sort of person you are and you don't see people like that in F1 for a reason. If all you want to be is a fitter then you don't need brains as a poorly trained chimp can do that, hence the knuckle draggers you see in places like Kwik-Fit.

If you actually want to do anything that requires thinking you need to be smart. Cosworth wasn't run by a couple of chaps who didn't pay attention at school, they were bloody smart and their intelligence means the company has the image it does today.

Quote from tristancliffe :Look at the really clever people in F1 (young and old) and see what courses they did and where... and what ladder(s) they climbed.

The old BrawnGP website had a great meet the team feature that had a profile for some of the top brains at the team and what they had to do to get where they are. Most of them have qualifications that could see them designing aircraft for a living and they all started in lower formula.
Quote from sam93 :Ffs instead of asking you lot I'll go to the actual race teams and ask.

I'll do the foundation course where I'm going which will be in 3 yrs and then take me 2yrs to complete after that I'll go to Brunel well try... Or try to get in after doing a national diploma in motorsport.

As you say above about asking Race teams, It's mainly WHO you know now days than WHAT you know. I'm doing an Advanced Apprenticeship in Sporting Excellence next year, and that will probably get me absolutely no-where, But as my dad knows quite a few large teams, I May have a chance of helping out the team here and there picking up intellect as i go further on.
We will have a Kid next year working for our Ginetta team who basically wants to learn the trade off of our mechanic.
Never ask a forum for a simulation game, Never works out.
#64 - 5haz
Would I be right in saying teams still appreciate those who have experienced and worked their way up rather than those who come out of education near the top with their heads full of only theory?

I'd love be involved in that side of motorsport seeing as my time driving is all but over, but alas I've ended up going off on some Geographical tangent somehow.
Obviously you have to be smart once you work in a race team. I meant that you shouldn't have to be really smart at first once you're starting to get the qualifications.

I'm saying that every type of person should be given the chance to get qualified. I'm starting from bottom and working way up that's how keen I am
Quote from Jordan2007 :It's mainly WHO you know now days than WHAT you know.

It tends to be who you know not what you know and what you know about who you know. This has been the way for years and is unlikely to change. The biggest stumbling block for people trying to get anywhere is they don't make enough contacts along the way so have no one to call on when they get their qualifications.
Quote from sam93 :I'll deffo ask race teams as it'll be an actual real answer and not what people on here think when they probably haven't tried...

I've read the success stories people have had doing just these courses I'm doing and they have got into btcc/wrc/ff/f3/gp2 etc...

So it can't be crap and pointless what you people are making it out to be

BTCC/FF/F3/GP2 aren't F1! F1 is a whole different level to other car series. Tristan, and others acknowledged your course can get you to GP2 level. But there is a massive jump being a mechanic in a spec series, and then engineering on continually developing cars with huge amounts of pressure.

Ross Brawn, Adrian Newey, Rory Byrne are on another planet to some mechanics in GP2.

Also, your attitude needs to change. Why ask for an opinion on this forum, and because it doesn't match your own pre-decided conclusion you go on the negative?
I wasn't asking for anyones opinion on my course... Started asking about car and like every thread on this forum goes off topic
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(AudiBG) DELETED by AudiBG
#69 - 5haz
Quote from sam93 :I wasn't asking for anyones opinion on my course... Started asking about car and like every thread on this forum goes off topic

Well what do you expect, it's the world of shit that is LFSforum after all. Why do you (and I for that matter) even bother?
I recommend you a F1 car, venom GT or a Astra Van!
Quote from sam93 :You can be smart but shit at the job. I'm not very smart but will be better than the smart twats. I hate people who use the stereotype you have just used.

You can also be smart and good at the job, which is infinitely better than thick and good at the job, especially in motorsport where you might be the guy who discovers something wrong with the car with 5 minutes to go and has to make the call whether or not it can withstand the upcoming qualifying session without [much] risk of failure or has to fix whatever the issue is with whatever facilities are available to them to such a standard... It's not a case of taking a new component off the shelf and fitting it on a simple bonus scheme system.

Motorsport is not a place for thick people who can wield a spanner - you are directly responsible for the lives of your driver(s), spectators, other mechanics etc etc etc.

I hate people (mainly thick people) that think being smart is a bad thing. It isn't.
Quote from sam93 :
I've been to the college and know everything they offer. Their courses are ran by Bath University. I can't do A Levels because of my grades so have to start at the bottom... I have 2 Cs and rest are Ds.

Without meaning to be harsh if you can't get As or at the very least Bs in GCSE maths and physics without trying then there is no hope of ever getting an engineering degree or working in any kind of motorsport design role. The few who do get far without the conventional education route still performed well at school however much they disliked it or try to play it down.

Quote from sam93 :
But the car they have built cant be crap if its won the championship they enter into for 3yrs in a row.

The Castle Coombe Formula Ford championship is a budget championship for amateurs on a very tight budget. I think it also has an age cut off on the chassis so by definition the college can't be designing a new car, simply running a car with a competent driver and a large budget isn't terribly impressive, any club racing championship can be fairly easily won by those who choose to race in a series they can be competitive in when everybody else can only just afford to run a car in the series.

Quote :
Why would Motorsport Engineering stop me getting a job in a race team building cars ffs.

This kind of course will help you to become a mechanic, however, you could get the same jobs without this qualification. Your lack of decent GCSEs will make any potential employer think your stupid though and if you don't do anything about them will be a big barrier to any career path.

Quote from oli17 :i've skim-read through this, and was interested as i too was thinking of doing motorsport engineering, however in a different way:

-A-levels (Maths, Physics, DT (and maybe further maths or just an AS level in further maths))

-Mechanical engineering at uni (BEng)

-"specialise" in motorsport engineering, hopefully in the US (MSc?)

can anyone give me some helpful, non flaming advice on whether this sound like a good idea?

cheers

Sounds like you're going about it the right way, make sure you get an IMechE accredited course. An MEng is a higher qualification than a BEng + MSc, only the MEng qualifies for the entire academic requirement for chartered status. The MEng also works out cheaper as you can get a student loan for the whole time (although sponsorship/other loans is possible for an MSc).

Quote from Jakg :DT wont help and Further Maths goes into the theoretical far too much which wont help for what your trying to do - but Maths and Physics is a good start.

Don't bother posting about things you've got no clue on.

Product design is hugely helpful, those who didn't do it really struggle to get to grips with producing technical drawings, very important and somewhat glossed over. Having a better grasp of design concepts and background knowledge on materials selection is also very helpful. Those who haven't done it are pretty much useless in group design environments, taking far too long to do anything, struggling to communicate ideas and coming out with ridiculous design suggestions.

Further maths would be helpful if you can manage to do it with your A levels, it would take a lot of pressure off at uni, I wish I had done it for AS now instead of business studies, which was useless and so boring that I ended up with a B.

Quote from sam93 :I want to be assembling and setting up the cars with a bit of development. So I think what I'm planning on doing is the right path.

I wouldn't mind having my own company doing bespoke car tuning. So of I can't get into a racing team that's what I would do.

Tristan, you're making it out what I'm doing will get me no where, if it didn't get you no where no one will be applying for the course

Quote from sam93 :Obviously you have to be smart once you work in a race team. I meant that you shouldn't have to be really smart at first once you're starting to get the qualifications.

I'm saying that every type of person should be given the chance to get qualified. I'm starting from bottom and working way up that's how keen I am

You were given the chance and by your own admission threw it away by messing about, what you don't seem to realise is that further education requires a lot more effort than school, and unlike at school or college by the time you go to uni nobody cares if you don't do any work, you'll just fail and drop out like a lot of people.
I'll second the MX-5 suggestion. I don't own one, but it does seem to fit your needs pretty well.
****ING LOL!!! Employer will really care about GCSEs when they see experience and degrees layed out infront of em they'll really care.

I got a double D in applied Science and a C in Maths, my predicted grades were all Bs Cs.

I'm not exactly thick by no means.

I obviously will end up being really smart at the end of it as I'll have to be. But I hate these smart people who think they're a lot better than most people.

FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG