Indeed, and i never said Vettel did no wrong or anything like that. I merely stating, because it seemed to be ignored often, that there was no need for Webber to push the luck that hard. He made a weak block and as a result he finds the car next to him with 'overlapa'. If he wouldn't be that short sighted (a reason he'll never be F1 Champion), he could have prepared for counter attack, that is if he'd want to have chance for the Victory.
What Vettel did was rather normal racing procedere, considering he passes a team mate, who would have the same interests in letting the main rival behind.
Lets at least let the results do the talking, you can be as talented as you like but if you don't have luck then you'll never get the results.
My point is there is a long queue of drivers who supposedly have superior talent but never made it, talent is not the be and and end all of motor racing success.
Tristan do you believe a guy tied in the WDC in this day and age would be sitting on the grid in a damaged car?
I,m sorry but i cant believe the damaged chassis story , while the roll bar was completely visible .
F1 cars are scrutinized within an inch of there lives after and before an event , i cant buy Seb being put in a car with a busted chassis or the damage was so minimal as to not effect the performance .
There is no doubt Seb will become a greater driver than Mark as he has been invested in all his life in motor sport and he is young , capable and hungry .
Still Mark is not doing too bad for an old nobody as people keep saying, he has always punched well above his supposed weight..
Considering the background Webber had it could be argued he has the greater in-built talent.
And let's once and for all throw out this nonsense about soulless manufactured drivers. RedBull have been nurturing Vettel as long as McLaren nurtured Hamilton (who I guess that comment was aimed at). His personality is as much created and nurtured as Hamilton's was. All this naming of the car, and being jokey is pretty standard RedBull PR. We saw the 'true Vettel' as he got out his broken RedBull in turkey and then going back to get some huggsies from the pitwall. How different that version of Vettel was to the one we normally see in front of the cameras eh???
I for one do think Vettel is a fantastic talent. I do think his career wasn't mapped out correctly and he missed some vital stages in his career in hurrying him into cars too early. This lack of driving and racing maturity has shone through in recent years. He'll probably win the WDC in the end however.
But I certainly wouldn't put him comprehensively ahead of Webber as of today despite of what I have said about Webber in the past.
I've always found it interesting how hacks on an internet forum can know and make judgements on every part of a given F1 driver's psyche, despite never having been near a grand prix let alone the driver in question.
I honestly don't know why I or anyone bothers, in reality our opinions count for absolutely jack all.
It'd be nice if people and the media stuck to discussing racing drivers as drivers who race, not about who does their hair and what their favourite breakfast serial is. If we all behaved like this then perhaps drivers and teams would not feel the need to manufacture themselves a personality, an acceptable front. F1 is becoming a reality TV show.
You are particularly guilty of armchair F1 driver psycology, you're not the only one however.
Heres a revelation, what if... the driver's personality features are actually genuine! You shouldn't let cynicism take over your life (yeahhhh, right).
More seriously though, I just don't think people are in a position to complain and point out the bland manufactured fronts that F1 drivers have to present to the media and the public without realising that its the attitudes of the media and the public that in part made building these fronts necessary.
In 08 the STR was faster then the RBR because of the engine as in 08 the cars where almost at there aerodynamic limit for the regulations, so the engine made a huge difference.
I wouldn't say Webber "pushed the luck", because it was still Vettel who turned on him.
What Webber did was normal racing procedure. Turning into someone and then blaming the other for being there? Now that's Vettel's normal racing procedure. (That's what also happened in the pits in China)
JazzOn clearly is making this up as he goes as its pretty obvious Vettel was at fault where as Webber didn't really do anything out of the ordinary for a defensive move.
So according to him Webber will never be a WDC because Vettel is lacking race-craft.
He shouldn't have been that defensive. He could have let the pass happen and concentrate on blocking hamilton, or for that matter, challenge Vettel in return, since the next corner was a chicane. By working together, they would have assured the 1-2. I mean, the Mclarens with their f-duct, have better topspeed. Slowing Redbulls even more, in having Vettel wait behind Webber, although he could take advantage of webbers slipstream, would be just stupid. Just like forcing him to stay at the very left side on the dirty part of the surface. And this is probably what Vettel was so pissed off about.
Say last lap, last corner, yeah go for it, but it wasn't the time.
China? What steering? that was at extremely low speed and it was fun! They were measuring their...wheelbase length. That Hamilton goes to the big boys and whines how mean the seb is, just shows what kind of wanker he is, btw.
@ Mustafur, are you serious or are you trolling? What is race craft for you? being passive and not move, although its a battle that's already lost?
He fights his teamate while Hamilton is just waiting for them to loose a good load of time, so he can snap them at once. If both have had made it to the corner, thats what most likely would have happend. I can't argue that this wouldn't have been fun to see (from the dramatic POV). I think it was an important point of the race, seeing as both teams started to slow down in order to finish, may it be fuel or tires.
So in my books, for F1, Webber lacks the race craft.
However, i'm not sure if you are serious or just 'taking the piss' and i don't really know why i made over 20 posts here...
I have my opinion and you have yours. Let the next race come.
Race craft is not gifting your team mate position on the road, like all things in life you have to earn it to get it . Seb acted like a randy drunk he saw hole and thought thats mine, as it turned out some one else was using it at the time..
Lesson is don't stick your nose in unless your sure it will fit
Webber left room however Vettel assumed he would move, he didn't check his mirrors so it was his fault, they hadn't reached the braking point yet so i can hardly see how it was overly defensive.
Webber was able to hold his line so how is hes racecraft lacking?
Well, obviously you're trolling and laughing your ass off.
I mean you seem to ignore everything i say and come up with "check his mirrors"?? Are you aware of the phenomenon of the 'blind spot', which is way larger then in a normal car, having the drivers eyes just over the chassis and the helmet fixed on the HANS.
And have you read what i said about the situation of the race?
So yeah, have a good laugh and praise the almighty Webber.
I've driven karts for nearly 20 years... and we don't even HAVE mirrors.... and I have never once done what Vettel did. And on the whole we don't have lovely big run-offs and crash protection. If we cock up we land on our head at 85mph.
The thing is we use this thing called 'spacial awareness' to know not to turn out on people in the fashion Vettel did. If you decide to move over you need to 100% sure you've put your car is fully in front of the one you overtook. If you try to get all cocky and then bin it it's your O*W*N fault. It's doesn't matter if your doing 100mph or 200mph. - the principles are still the same.
Everyone accepts Vettel mucked up even the most hardened fanboys.
Vettel wasn't trying to swerve in front of Webber. He knew he wasn't fully ahead, and was trying to squeeze Webber to the right a bit so that his entry into the final corner wasn't as compromised. Nothing to do with mirrors or blind spots in my opinion.
But I agree with Alan (!) that most of time mirrors aren't useful in an overtaking situation. You just know where the other car is, even when you can't see it. You can still hear it, and you know the relative speeds of the cars, and you know the lines and the amount of grip... And I've done my fair share of overtaking at 100mph+ in open wheeled cars.
The majority of overtaking moves end up with both cars off line towards the inside of the corner, and the overtaker trying to squeeze back towards the racing line... In that regards it was a totally normal move. Webber thus holds some blame for the collision for not moving out of the way, especially as a) it was his team mate, and inter-team collisions are a no-no and b) Vettel was slightly ahead. Not just alongside, but ahead.
That is why I cannot give Vettel 100% of the blame.
But it's far more interesting like this than if overtaking was easy and boring. F1 fans seem to complain when there isn't any action and then get upset when there is. You can't seem to please most of the people any of the time.
That Hamilton goes to the big boys and whines how mean the seb is, just shows what kind of wanker he is, btw.