Quote from JPeace :

No, thats one person's opinion, and he is entitled to that opinion. Just because one person thinks that: doesn't mean that its a common opinion. And just for the record, I dont think that Button is a "prick". I think he is one of the best drivers on that grid, and has the ability to both drive quick and use his head. Most drivers only have the first ability.




Well, if that is the case, then he won't be winning any more world championships will he? I think that Lewis is finding it hard without his Dad as his manager, remember his dad has been there all the way for him, before every race, giving him encouragement. Even got him into the sport right at the start. Its hard when thats gone, and I don't think he is coping without a manager.

and I think Button has more of the later than the former through... but at least he still have both~

I wonder what's the real reason behind why his dad just all of a sudden disappeared this year...

Quote from JCTK :

and I think Button has more of the later than the former through... but at least he still have both~

I wonder what's the real reason behind why his dad just all of a sudden disappeared this year...

Because he said he wants to be independent now and allow his dad to get on wth his own business.

And why do you always write this "~" symbol?

5haz, I am pretty sure you would also be pissed off if you were in Hamilton's shoes. Its easy for us to criticize that and that when we are not actually racing and fighting for the WDC...

Quote from DevilDare :

5haz, I am pretty sure you would also be pissed off if you were in Hamilton's shoes. Its easy for us to criticize that and that when we are not actually racing and fighting for the WDC...

If I was in Hamilton's shoes I wouldn't be asking the team to guarentee the safety of my position to start with. I'd be checking my mirrors and doing my best to defend while still taking into consideration the wellbeing of the car and its tyres.

Mainly because that is what racing drivers are supposed to be paid to do.

Button is fighting for a WDC too don't forget, not only that but hes in a slightly better position, so why should his interests be shoved aside in favour of Hamilton's?

No one said everything should be shoved towards Hamilton...

He simply asked. Didnt say, "back him off", but asked if he is on the same strategy and if he will try to pass him. There is a huge bloody difference between the two... If the team told him, "Yes he might" than Hamilton would of known to defend like you say... But now the team say, "no its ok continue", and then Button flies past him... If you ask me, thats the team catering towards Button and lying to Hamilton. But ofcourse, you will call me a fanboy for that so...

And you are just saying you wouldnt be pissed off as well. Complete bullshit and you know it.

Quote from DevilDare :

No one said everything should be shoved towards Hamilton...

He simply asked. Didnt say, "back him off", but asked if he is on the same strategy and if he will try to pass him. There is a huge bloody difference between the two... If the team told him, "Yes he might" than Hamilton would of known to defend like you say... But now the team say, "no its ok continue", and then Button flies past him... If you ask me, thats the team catering towards Button and lying to Hamilton. But ofcourse, you will call me a fanboy for that so...

There is nothing wrong with asking...

The point is, its ridiculous that Hamilton was asking that kind of question in the first place, he should've known that Button was going to try and race him. Or should Mclaren have to remind him every so often that he is in a motor race and that other competitors might try to pass him at some point?!

Actually, that is essentially what Hamilton wants Mclaren to do already, so not as outlandish as it may seem. :doh:

And as for Button's interests being shelved in favour of Hamilton's, it may not be official and there may not be any words said about it, but it is implied. Its not hard to see that the attiutude is there within the team.

Have I missed something of has F1 become completely staged now?

Quote from DevilDare :

And you are just saying you wouldnt be pissed off as well. Complete bullshit and you know it.

I wouldn't be pleased that I'd lost a position, who would? But I wouldn't have even asked the question to begin with, because I would've realised that Button was always going to try and make a pass because thats how motor racing works!

OK...

If both cars are on "fuel saving" than there is no racing. Thats it. Why should he expect Button to pass him when they are both meant to cruise to the finish as the team told them to do so...

So to double check he simply asks the team if Button is doing the same thing. I really fail to see how you think thats bad. It just doesnt go around me...

Actually, because he does double check it shows to me that he does know he is still in a motor race...

Thats it. I dont want to start an argument so yeah...

Quote from 5haz :

The point is, its ridiculous that Hamilton was asking that kind of question in the first place, he should've known that Button was going to try and race him. Or should Mclaren have to remind him every so often that he is in a motor race and that other competitors might try to pass him at some point?!

Actually, that is essentially what Hamilton wants Mclaren to do already, so not as outlandish as it may seem. :doh:

And as for Button's interests being shelved in favour of Hamilton's, it may not be official and there may not be any words said about it, but it is implied. Its not hard to see that the attiutude is there within the team.

Have I missed something of has F1 become completely staged now?



I wouldn't be pleased that I'd lost a position, who would? But I wouldn't have even asked the question to begin with, because I would've realised that Button was always going to try and make a pass because thats how motor racing works!

they are teammates after all. And I don't see much wrong about asking the team whether his teammate were going to race him.

And yes you are missing something for years. It have happened for many years to hold position in order to bag a safe 1-2. Which is exactly what the Red Bulls didn't do (but their 1-2 weren't safe, for McLaren it definitly was after the RBs took themselves out). It isn't staged, F1 is also a team sport. And as the Red Bulls proved time and time again this year, to finish 1st, first you got to finish. And I don't see anything wrong with McLaren making sure both cars made the finish in a safe manner.

PS. team orders for hold position is one thing, and it's quite another (and forbidden) if they ordered Button through to get the win, despite him being in a higher position in the championship table.

Quote from DevilDare :

OK...

If both cars are on "fuel saving" than there is no racing. Thats it. Why should he expect Button to pass him when they are both meant to cruise to the finish as the team told them to do so...

See this is the problem, this is a race, for starters the cars should have enough fuel to finish the race at the fastest possible pace, this isn't endurance racing!

Button was in striking distance of Hamilton and Hamilton needed to defend. Now in the days before the rot set in Button would do his best to catch Hamilton and Hamilton would do his best to defend his position within the rules, this is a racing! Now however the drivers are expected to go easy on eachother and there is a need to save fuel in a bloody sprint race! This is one of the main reasons why there is a lack of overtaking and excitement in F1, because the very racing spirit which F1 developed from in the first place is being watered down.

Essentially they are being told not to race, so why are they even there? Why don't they just do away with the car parade and auction GP wins off the the highest bidder? It'd be a lot quicker and easier for everyone involved that way.

Quote from DevilDare :

So to double check he simply asks the team if Button is doing the same thing. I really fail to see how you think thats bad. It just doesnt go around me...

His words were "If I back off, will Button overtake me?", it's common sense that Button will overtake him given the chance, and Hamilton is asking the team if Button will overtake him, not if he is doing the same thing.

Hamilton should've known the real answer already.

Quote from JCTK :

they are teammates after all. And I don't see much wrong about asking the team whether his teammate were going to race him.

And yes you are missing something for years. It have happened for many years to hold position in order to bag a safe 1-2. Which is exactly what the Red Bulls didn't do (but their 1-2 weren't safe, for McLaren it definitly was after the RBs took themselves out). It isn't staged, F1 is also a team sport. And as the Red Bulls proved time and time again this year, to finish 1st, first you got to finish. And I don't see anything wrong with McLaren making sure both cars made the finish in a safe manner.

PS. team orders for hold position is one thing, and it's quite another (and forbidden) if they ordered Button through to get the win, despite him being in a higher position in the championship table.

Just because team orders have been around for a while dosen't make them acceptable.

The way I see the whole Hammilton - Button deal is as follows:

McLaren: Lewis, you need to save fuel, both cars are doing the same (this is very important to note).

Lewis: Jenson is closing in on me, you guys. Ie. how can he be doing the same if he's closing in on me?

Lewis: If I back off, will Jenson pass me? Ie. have you told Jenson to save fuel as well like you said or not?

McLaren: No, Lewis, no (call me crazy but just from the way the guys says it I think you can tell he's lying).

It was a legitimate question from Lewis and his reaction after the race was very understandable. He didn't expect the team to give him an easy victory, but if the team says to him to save fuel and that Jenson is doing the same, but Jenson gains rapidly on him when he backs off it's very understandable that he's confused and wants to know what the **** is going on. Ie. am I racing Button or is he on fuel saving mode as well.

5haz, I have to agree with the other guys on this one. Yes, it's a race but team orders have existed for a long long time now and as a racing driver it's only logical that you expect your team to give you accurate information. If they'd said "Yeah, there's a chance Button will make a move" then he would have been more defensive and Button would likely not have been able to get so close to him. But the team assured him he was on fuel saving mode as well and would not make a move so obviously he was surprised when Button did what he did.

I mean... it's totally understandable, I don't see what you don't get or find so strange or whatever

Quote from JPeace :

You don't understand.

His "daddy" didn't tell him how to drive, but by just being there, he offered him support, somebody to lean on: and probrably, as most fathers do, give advice. He has gone off the road recently since he fired his father. Not that you would read any of this, you read the first couple of sentences and go straight into your little rant. This is slowly going off topic, and thats my cue to leave. Adios.

His dad dosen't have to be his manager to give him support, he dosen't need to be around him all the time either, Hamilton isn't 5. I'm sure Hamilton has plenty of other people at a Grand Prix that he can lean on too.

Well seeing as what came after the first few lines of your post was pretty useless and off topic then I don't see why I should read any more. Besides, I read it anyway which rather proves your point wrong.

At least I am on about F1 however, which is infact on topic.

Wow 5haz you are either stupid or just plain ignorant.

The McLaren drivers were told to hold position via "fuel saving". I doubt that they got it so wrong on fuel tbh.

Lewis clarified this hold position message by asking if Button was going to pass him. Obviously looking to see whether it's a problem with his car or it's a coded message. Lewis understood it was a coded message but Button didn't. Lewis is a team player and at this stage of the season it's all about the constructors championship he knows that but Button doesn't seem to or chose not to. Jenson basically disobeyed team orders, yes that satanic element of F1, hence Lewis was pissed.

I don't think Lewis' dad leaving him as manager has affected him this season. I don't think anythng really has changed apart from Lewis seeming a lot calmer out the cockpit and a lot more 'open' with his choice of words in the cockpit.

Quote from BenjiMC :

Wow 5haz you are either stupid or just plain ignorant.

The McLaren drivers were told to hold position via "fuel saving". I doubt that they got it so wrong on fuel tbh.

Lewis clarified this hold position message by asking if Button was going to pass him. Obviously looking to see whether it's a problem with his car or it's a coded message. Lewis understood it was a coded message but Button didn't. Lewis is a team player and at this stage of the season it's all about the constructors championship he knows that but Button doesn't seem to or chose not to. Jenson basically disobeyed team orders, yes that satanic element of F1, hence Lewis was pissed.

I don't think Lewis' dad leaving him as manager has affected him this season. I don't think anythng really has changed apart from Lewis seeming a lot calmer out the cockpit and a lot more 'open' with his choice of words in the cockpit.

For starters the Mclarens should not be holding for fuel, its a ****ing sprint race for the millionth time. So what if there is a weight advantage there should be enough fuel for the cars to finish a race at full possible pace. And even if it was a coded message its a race nontheless and nobody should be holding back when there are positions to be gained!

In the push to save weight teams are always going to cut it too fine with fuel loads, so I wouldn't be suprised if it wasn't a coded message at all.

Lewis is a team player so long as it means he gets to win. I think you mean Lewis wanted to play the fix a race game but Button didnt.

Button did his job as a proper racing driver fighting for a championship, not a puppet on a string. The increasing emphasis on the constructors championship is also another reason the racing has become watered down, drivers should have more independance to race.

I think you've all forgotten how a competetive individual sport works, F1 is a team sport in some respects but it should remain an individual one in others.

Quote from 5haz :

For starters the Mclarens should not be holing for fuel, its a ****ing sprint race for the millionth time. So what if there is a weight advantage there should be enough fuel for the cars to finish a race at full possible pace.
...

Wow, you really are stupid aren't you.

Quote from BenjiMC :

Wow, you really are stupid aren't you.

If you weren't such a moron you'd read the next few paragraphs, but that wouldn't suit your agrument would it? You even deliberately left it out with a pause at the end just so you could twist what I said to your advantage, you mong.

Quote from 5haz :

For starters the Mclarens should not be holding for fuel, its a ****ing sprint race for the millionth time. So what if there is a weight advantage there should be enough fuel for the cars to finish a race at full possible pace. And even if it was a coded message its a race nontheless and nobody should be holding back when there are positions to be gained!

In the push to save weight teams are always going to cut it too fine with fuel loads, so I wouldn't be suprised if it wasn't a coded message at all.

all of the above is your stupidity in thinking the McLarens ACTUALLY had a fuel problem.

Lewis is a team player so long as it means he gets to win. I think you mean Lewis wanted to play the fix a race game but Button didnt.

How so? other than in Lewis' first season i can't remember him being such an arse towards his team mate like Jenson was. Not to mention the fact he is also talking about the Constructors championship more than the drivers championship so far this season.

Button did his job as a proper racing driver fighting for a championship, not a puppet on a string. The increasing emphasis on the constructors championship is also another reason the racing has become watered down, drivers should have more independance to race.

May be so but the emphasis on the constructors championsip is what gave us that 4 way battle with the McLarens and RBRs, then the lack of emphasis on that gave us Vettel and Webber's moment of idiocy.

I think you've all forgotten how a competetive individual sport works, F1 is a team sport in some respects but it should remain an individual one in others.

Yes, right now it is a team sport, 5 races to go it becomes and individual sport.

Quote from 5haz :

If you weren't such a moron you'd read the next few paragraphs, but that wouldn't suit your agrument would it? You even deliberately left it out with a pause at the end just so you could twist what I said, you mong.

Happy?

Quote from BenjiMC :

Happy?

Its common sense that teams are going to put as little fuel in as they can get away with, so what would make a fuel problem so impossible?

How the **** is Jenson being an arse towards his teammate, hes racing him! What part of that is so unacceptable? I'm glad not everbody shares that attitude or nobody would get anywhere for fear of upsetting the established order.

Webber and Vettel's idiocy was caused by idiocy alone, I know spending time racing online in LFS would make you disagree, but it is possible to have a close race without a crash, providing one of the drivers dosent steer into the other *cough* Vettel.

When Hamilton asked the team if Jenson was going to race him, he wasn't thinking about the team, he was thinking about protecting his own arse, so much for being a team player. I doubt Hamilton would've held back for Button, because it would'nt have benefitted him.

Quote from 5haz :

Its common sense that teams are going to put as little fuel in as they can get away with, so what would make a fuel problem so impossible?

How the **** is Jenson being an arse towards his teammate, hes racing him! What part of that is so unacceptable?

Indeed it is common sense however them both having this fuel problem and it being critical etc, your not understand what the fuel problem message really meant.

It's unacceptable when your twisting what the team has said and what the rules say with regards to team orders to make yourself look like the innocent party in all of this.

Quote from BenjiMC :

Indeed it is common sense however them both having this fuel problem and it being critical etc, your not understand what the fuel problem message really meant.

How can you be so sure that it really had a hidden meaning? For all you know it might be genuine, but again that wouldn't suit your argument so it gets overlooked.

Quote from BenjiMC :

It's unacceptable when your twisting what the team has said and what the rules say with regards to team orders to make yourself look like the innocent party in all of this.

Ah yes because Button is surely guilty of the crime of being a racing driver. Ridiculous.

Good on him really, he shouldn't let himself be held back for Hamilton's sake I can understand why he acted the way he did.

Quote from 5haz :

How can you be so sure that it really had a hidden meaning? For all you know it might be genuine, but again that wouldn't suit your argument so it gets overlooked.

How can you be so sure it didn't?

Quote :

Ah yes because Button is surely guilty of the crime of being a racing driver. Ridiculous.

Good on him really, he shouldn't let himself be held back for Hamilton's sake I can understand why he acted the way he did.

Button is guilty of not being a team player. Simple.

Like i said, 5 races to go i would understand your point, but so early in the season, along with what happened to the RBRs, Button was wrong.

Quote from 5haz :

See this is the problem, this is a race, for starters the cars should have enough fuel to finish the race at the fastest possible pace, this isn't endurance racing!

Button was in striking distance of Hamilton and Hamilton needed to defend. Now in the days before the rot set in Button would do his best to catch Hamilton and Hamilton would do his best to defend his position within the rules, this is a racing! Now however the drivers are expected to go easy on eachother and there is a need to save fuel in a bloody sprint race! This is one of the main reasons why there is a lack of overtaking and excitement in F1, because the very racing spirit which F1 developed from in the first place is being watered down.

Essentially they are being told not to race, so why are they even there? Why don't they just do away with the car parade and auction GP wins off the the highest bidder? It'd be a lot quicker and easier for everyone involved that way.



His words were "If I back off, will Button overtake me?", it's common sense that Button will overtake him given the chance, and Hamilton is asking the team if Button will overtake him, not if he is doing the same thing.

Hamilton should've known the real answer already.



Just because team orders have been around for a while dosen't make them acceptable.

Then I guess Formula One isn't suitable for you to watch any more, nor was it suitable for many years already.

You're the only one making a big fuss on something most people felt was normal.

Racing is one thing, and as I said earlier, in order to finish first, first you got to finish. And Lewis obviously thought that's what McLaren was telling their drivers to do, cruise it to the finish and bag the one-two. What's so much wrong in asking the team about that just to make sure?

Quote from BenjiMC :

How can you be so sure it didn't?

Button is guilty of not being a team player. Simple.

Like i said, 5 races to go i would understand your point, but so early in the season, along with what happened to the RBRs, Button was wrong.

I think Button was guilty of not understanding what the team really meant. Or perhaps he pretend he didn't.

He had his one go, and he backed right off after his one and only go failed. Perhaps more was said on the radio than just the fuel saving is "critical".

Quote from JCTK :

I think Button was guilty of not understanding what the team really meant. Or perhaps he pretend he didn't.

He had his one go, and he backed right off after his one and only go failed. Perhaps more was said on the radio than just the fuel saving is "critical".

I think he pretended tbh, Jenson isn't stupid and even in a post race interview he was asked, was the fuel saving mode code for hold position he replied "well if it is nobody told me" but it just sounded a bit sly to me. Then after he had his go they re-itterrated that fuel is critical. Thats the key part to me which proves it was all just code to hold position.

Quote from BenjiMC :

How can you be so sure it didn't?

So if it can't be proven either way, why are you confident enough to call me stupid over it?

Quote from BenjiMC :

Button is guilty of not being a team player. Simple.

Good on him.

Quote from BenjiMC :

Like i said, 5 races to go i would understand your point, but so early in the season, along with what happened to the RBRs, Button was wrong.

What difference does it make when every round counts for the championship, a poor result early on can cost a championship later on despite a strong run at the end of the season, Felipe Massa in 2008 being an example. Button can't afford to take one for the team at any time if he wants to retain his championship, especially this year with Red Bull more threatening then ever.

There needs to be less of an obsession with constructors and more emphasis on the drivers who are the ones doing the racing, racing is after all is what everyone supposedly turns up for.

Quote from JCTK :

Then I guess Formula One isn't suitable for you to watch any more, nor was it suitable for many years already.

Quite right, lately I only watch the starts, finishes and any incidents so I know what everyone is talking about.

Quote from JCTK :

You're the only one making a big fuss on something most people felt was normal.

I don't see what is normal about not racing in a race.

Quote from JCTK :

Racing is one thing, and as I said earlier, in order to finish first, first you got to finish. And Lewis obviously thought that's what McLaren was telling their drivers to do, cruise it to the finish and bag the one-two. What's so much wrong in asking the team about that just to make sure?

Because thats not racing.

I could understand Hamilton or Button backing off if they were alone on the track with many seconds to spare over the next car, but they were in a position to race eachother and I think its awful that people seem to think its wrong that Button chose to have a race, regardless how how many times teams have opted for an easy 1-2 before, it still isn't right.

Quote from 5haz :

So if it can't be proven either way, why are you confident enough to call me stupid over it?

Because i'm pretty confident it is a coded message, as is pretty much everybody but you.

Quote :

What difference does it make when every round counts for the championship, a poor result early on can cost a championship later on despite a strong run at the end of the season, Felipe Massa in 2008 being an example. Button can't afford to take one for the team at any time if he wants to retain his championship, especially this year with Red Bull more threatening then ever.

There needs to be less of an obsession with constructors and more emphasis on the drivers who are the ones doing the racing, racing is after all is what everyone supposedly turns up for.

The difference is that the true positions will play out near the end of the season. Thats the whole point of a championship system. It's like basing the whole of 09 on spa where Force India and Ferrari were in contention for the win, that had no bearing on what happened in the rest of the season. Early in the season it's about getting the results instead of being like Jenson Button who would risk it for a chocolate biscuit.

Quote from BenjiMC :

The difference is that the true positions will play out near the end of the season. Thats the whole point of a championship system. It's like basing the whole of 09 on spa where Force India and Ferrari were in contention for the win, that had no bearing on what happened in the rest of the season. Early in the season it's about getting the results instead of being like Jenson Button who would risk it for a chocolate biscuit.

Its this risk averse attitude which makes F1, and life boring.