In my opinion it was the right thing to do for the championship, but the way they did it was obvious and ugly. They should have made the call much earlier, when Massa was actually holding up Alonso after the first pitstops. I also agree with the comments at the time that a drivers engineer shouldn't be the one giving the order, it should come directly from the person that made the decision.
Formula 1 Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland 2010 (Hockenheimring)
(249 posts, started )
But that would make it even more suspicious/obvious, unless that decision maker is in constant communication with the driver anyway.
What irks me about Ferrari here is that they're insulting the intelligence of everybody because they reckon they can get away with it. IF they had done it with a bit of subtlety they might have but then we should all still have been left with the same sentiments, and in a way it would have made it even worse. They can't act well on the radio, so why should we expect that they could act well on the circuit? We would still have seen through it.
Smedley said what he had to say in a foolish, almost childish way. I laughed when in his post race interview on the BBC he said that his "I'm sorry" remark was simply with regard to him being sorry that Felipe had "lost" the position, even though on the radio he'd begun that transmission with an approving "Good lad".
Massa himself could have immediately said "it was all my decision" and that would have take a lot of heat off Ferrari, but in the immediate press conference he was clearly still annoyed and also did the "I'm grudgingly a team player and I need the world to know about it" thing, which really doesn't work in a post-race interview if there's a rule against team orders.
It can never be stopped, obviously, as long as teams run more than one car. Even if you removed the radios and the pit boards, you'd still have managers saying "if you're ahead of him, and he's close, let him through, do not fight" before they even get to the circut. But when other teams seem to actively encourage it, Ferrari just seem so negative, like they don't care about the show, or the sport.
They have to enforce the rule, whether the fine will be enough, I doubt it.
I feel sorry for Massa, as Alonso should've passed him when he had the chance. But at the end of the day, Massa gets a decent wage from Ferrari, and he's supplied with a top-end car. And for Ferrari, it's all about winning the championship, so he's got to do what he has to do, and that unfortunately was to let Alonso past. (in a more subtle way, would've been better :P)
And another thought, surely they'd of had to of pre-planned this, and maybe discussed it with him before hand, and maybe said that under such a circumstance Alonso would've had to be let by?
And another thought, surely they'd of had to of pre-planned this, and maybe discussed it with him before hand, and maybe said that under such a circumstance Alonso would've had to be let by?
The fine is a laughable. The TV exposure value and prize money from the points more than make up for fine.
This is the key point for the FIA - The fans feel like they are being patronised. Fans are much much much more aware nowadays because the internet has facilitated greater understanding of the sport. In 2002 we didn't have Youtube and Twatter and MyFace.
you lose the fans faith in F1 and you don't gave F1 any more.
What urked me more than anything was this "Fernando was faster all weekend" and Ferrari towing that line. Who freakin' cares who's faster. You don't get points for being 'fast'. You win points buy racing which is a whole different kettle of fish.
Me too, I wanted someone to say "You may have been faster for all of weekend, but you were behind for all of the race."
I don't think their marketing department can give a positive twist to this race.
lol so true. I wanted someone to say
Qualifying rewards the fastest driver, whereas racing rewards the best race driver.
After Valencia with Alonso and Ferrari talking about 'manipulation' of the race results you have to wonder - (in the words of Alonso himself) "F1 isn't a sport any more".
I am talking about pure financial figures. The TV exposure allowed them to sell advertising on their car. So for that race they would have received quite a few million in sponsorship which more than makes up for the fine.
HA HA HA HA HA. Nice try at trying to look hamilton better.
All of this is just ridiculous. There is absolutely no way to ensure that this was a team order. Just because a race engineer said something "in a funny voice" doesn't prove anything. All of this team orders stuff is ridiculous because there really is no way to enforce it. Maybe it was Massa and Alonso agreeing on letting Alonso pass. Maybe they agreed on letting the faster pass.
With the current means there is no way to enforce this rule so I think it should be get rid of. The enforcing is just based on assumptions. All the team orders stuff is just BS.
Well thank you! How nice.
oh well... what a joke f1 has become.....
as for the wing '' gate ''
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85563
RB and the mafioso cheaters have a legal front wing
as for the wing '' gate ''
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85563
RB and the mafioso cheaters have a legal front wing
Sooooo
Ferrari's blown diff working good right away.
McLaren's not so much. It doesn't look like a thing that you can fix up without test days. Either you get it good right away or you're kinda stuck with the thing never working ok with the rest of your package.
The lead is not big enough to just rack up 4th-5th places and surf to the end.
They need to figure out what's wrong with it...quick. If not they better hope Red Bull & Ferrari crash each other very often.
Ferrari's blown diff working good right away.
McLaren's not so much. It doesn't look like a thing that you can fix up without test days. Either you get it good right away or you're kinda stuck with the thing never working ok with the rest of your package.
The lead is not big enough to just rack up 4th-5th places and surf to the end.
They need to figure out what's wrong with it...quick. If not they better hope Red Bull & Ferrari crash each other very often.
Team orders said in a way like this is pretty common the fact was massa was angry about it and made it look as diliberate as possible, imo it was the right thing for the championship as now alonso is back in contention, massa was more then a victory behind alonso in points and where getting to the last part of the season there is no time to muck around i think it was the right a decision.
Redbull really screwed this one up, Vettel at the start, and with marks rubbish pit stop calling.
Redbull really screwed this one up, Vettel at the start, and with marks rubbish pit stop calling.
If the FIA make the right decision and DSQ both drivers it won't be the 'right decision' a few people say it is. This was not a planned thing like you expect to see in F1. We all know there are 'procedures' that teams go through with their drivers.
However what happened today was Ferrari deciding out of the blue to demote Massa to 2nd. In doing this they insulted F1 and the fans (who provide the value to F1 sponsors etc... who pay for the whole thing).
The main difference was as you said Ferrari didn't plan this out before the race incase something like this happened, and they where punished for it.
The right decision is a 5 second penalty for car 8.
When I saw it happening I was gutted, it spoiled the whole race for me. I feel really bad for Rob Smedley, having to tell Massa to do something like that must have been horrible for him. Had it been another driver being told by a different engineer maybe I wouldn't have been so gutted, but Massa and Rob are too likeable to be dumped on in that way.
I agree, it was totally disgusting, the way he said it, the manouver itself, Alonso's 'this is redicolous' crying, etc.. No wonder i never liked those red cars.
no way to enforce it? the FIA just did.
The FIA doesn't operate a normal court system, they don't need to prove something that is ridiculously obviously breaking the spirit of the rules (but done in such a way that deliberately tried to not to contravene the wording of the rule).
he should go to some Ferrari lovers forum, so they can share their totally bias view without being flamed.
Really? What position are you working for in the FIA? Are you part of the stewards or part of the World Motorsport Council that made you so sure on that?
I guess what the FIA did pretty much disagree with what you said there.
The no Jensen would not pass you was the personal opinion of his race engineer based on the fact that he thought Jensen would need to be slowed down to save some fuel.
But what happened a couple of laps later showed perfectly that there were no obvious team orders there. They short fueled both McLarens, and it's only normal that they need to slow the cars down to get to the finish.
The one with Heikki was covered already by others, so I ain't gonna touch on that. But basically, the rules were introduced when a number two driver was leading the race, and had to hand the win to the number one driver when the team asked. I believe (and it's my personal opinion only) it's worded in such a way to be very general in nature, so they could have grounds to punish the teams when the same thing happened again, as was the case yesterday.
With the Hamilton Heikki incident, without seeing the race footage and hearing the team radio you can't say it was a team order (though it may have been) I would suspect that it was a team agreement that "if either driver is faster and is behind then they will be able to pass without any defensive moves being made by the lead driver" or something along those lines. The problem with Ferrari is though that it was an order and the pass was obvious. If Massa had of slowed a little earlier meaning alonso could of got a tow into the hairpin, gone to the inside and Massa didn't defend. Then it could of been argued it was a true pass just Massa didn't fight too hard because it was his team mate.
The fine they received though is ridiculous, so little money for a team like Ferrari.
The fine they received though is ridiculous, so little money for a team like Ferrari.
And how exactly can you say that in this situation it wasn't like that and Massa was just reminded that 'Alonso was faster'. For reasons unknown to us Massa did the maneuver in this weird manner.
I don't really like this rule. It should surely be allowed for teams to order their cars to do anything they want. Currently they just need to agree who is let pass before the race and can't use the radio. In that case, 'letting pass' can be interpreted as the driver's idea.
Which made me wonder, is telling a driver not to pass illegal too. Hmm. All this is just too confusing, but then again F1 is ruined anyway so it doesn't make a difference. Like offside in football.
I think Ferrari is a disgrace to F1 with their teamorders they have learned nothing, did they really think they could fool us?
No way weir smarter than that Ferrari they have to much money and while the FIA will not admit it they favour Ferrari they have to much money and influence.
No way weir smarter than that Ferrari they have to much money and while the FIA will not admit it they favour Ferrari they have to much money and influence.
The rule was originally put in because fans don't understand the sport. If people are aware of the realities of the situation then team orders are natural and have been part of the sport for decades. If this had been 1950s F1 then Massa may even be called into the pit to give his car to Alonso.
There are similarities to the Tour de France. A domestique will surrender his bike to his team leader, or bust himself physically in order to help his leader get into position in the race. No one wails about Navarro killing himself in the mountains to help Contador, although it means Navarro then has no chance to win.
Massa is the domestique, Alonso is the leader.
Having said that, the rules are the rules and should be rigorously enforced, especially if the FIA considers that Ferrari have lied to the stewards, which would be much more serious than 39.1.
There are similarities to the Tour de France. A domestique will surrender his bike to his team leader, or bust himself physically in order to help his leader get into position in the race. No one wails about Navarro killing himself in the mountains to help Contador, although it means Navarro then has no chance to win.
Massa is the domestique, Alonso is the leader.
Having said that, the rules are the rules and should be rigorously enforced, especially if the FIA considers that Ferrari have lied to the stewards, which would be much more serious than 39.1.
Formula 1 Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland 2010 (Hockenheimring)
(249 posts, started )
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