Different sports are different. When I watch TdF, I go in expecting the team to be working to help one person to the win. If F1 teams didn't tout 'equal opportunities' and 'no 2nd driver', it would be the same. As it is, you don't see Massa help Alonso by giving him tows on the front straight of a track in quali, which I'd expect he'd do if the whole thing was for the number 1 driver
Well I've always spread the love amongst the teams, never really having one overwhelming favourite. McLaren were always the team I disliked most but that was only due to Ron Dennis. After his departure they instantly became a more attractive team
Never did quite understand what all the Ferrari-haters were on about, sour grapes I thought....until now
Much like never voting Tory after their poll tax expoilts up here, Ferrari are a team that I will never have any warmth for in the future.
Dirty cheating scumbag bastards
...and thats me being "magnanimous" about it....
Ok, £100,000 might be the maximum punishment available to the stewards, but I hope the FIA/WMSC hump them to within an inch of their bottemless pit of funds.
1. Ok, £100,000 fine.
2. They should most definitely be stripped of all drivers and team points from the race.
3. 6 race ban suspended for 12 months in case of further indiscretions.
4. A right guid slap round the lug to Dominicalli and Alonso.
My view, it's a team sport and individual sport at the same time and here lies the problem.
I have no issue about Ferrari wanting to get Alonso ahead of Massa, logically it makes sense. While Alonso may be many points away from the lead in the championship, Massa was even further and mathematically Alonso is in a better place to challenge, so it makes sense to get Alonso ahead. The way it was done leaves a sour taste in the mouth but that's sport, it never is fair.
Another thing I want to pick up on is the comments that moves like this see fans cheated and leaving the sport, I don't buy that for a second....otherwise the sport would be dead now after all the previous 'moments' we have had. If the fans seriously believe that there is no team order (even now) then they need to remove their heads from the sand and stop being so blinkered, there has always been team orders and will be even in the future, the only way you can get rid of it is by disbanding teams altogether.
Some of the reaction from the Ferrari-haters have been comically though, if I wasn't hurting as much from the karting then I would be laughing.
In the situation I was brining up, it wouldn't be an almost stop on track just to let your team mate through. It would be - if your team who is quicker makes a move don't defend your position. There is only a slight difference I know but there is a difference and thats the important thing.
There is a bigger issue here, and that's the overall credibility of motorsport. The FIA have gone out of their way in recent years to effectively place the main focus on drivers and their ability. With various new championships and schemes that place the driver as the main focus for the sport. The FIA want motorsport to change and be a more credible sport.
Yes, F1 needs to remain as the pinnacle of the sport with technology and teams, but not to the detriment to the credibility of the 'greater good'. I think everyone accepts there are team strategies. That makes perfect sense. But what people don't like are blatant orders that make the sport look silly. It was clear before the race there was not a pre-planned strategy to let Alonso win if Massa was leading. What happened was an on the spot decision which was then followed by obvious team order, an embarrassing overtake, and a farce aftermath with weird statements from the Ferrari team.
I heard someone on the radio today who had spend £5000 to travel to Germany to watch the race, and they feel robbed. now of course F1 is F1 and they should have known this. However if you lose the fans, which F1 did do in the early 00s, you lose F1. They provide the value for all the investment in F1. Don't think people won't find something else to watch on a Sunday.
There's also another issue, probably more relevant issue. If motorsport is to continue and be able to justify itself in a world where everyone has a crazy green agenda it needs to appears whiter than white. how can the FIA justify a sport which consumes fuel like we do, if it appears to full of fixing and cheating. These things undermine motor racing as a sport, and consciously or sub-consciously will affect how people perceive it. For example, the last thing you want if you put in a planning order for a new circuit ls a bunch of council workers who think motor racing is full of fixing and isn't worthy. That may be an extreme example, but it highlights my point.
Don't mention green agendas with motorsport - it's an easily proven fact that the whole of motorsport throughout the world uses a tiny amount of fuel and produces a tiny amount of 'pollution' (including noise, CO2, NOx, heat, plastic waste etc) than many things we take for granted in every day life that occur millions of times more frequently - passenger jets. Road traffic. Central heating.
Once cars, planes, lorries, electricity in the home and the workplace and central heating are banned I will be happy to see motorsport picked on for being harmful. At the moment it isn't. No more than chess. Or rubgy.
Easily proven facts and the green agenda don't really go together now do they? I can be proven the Prius is a complete waste of space and no greener than any other car out there but they sell by the bucket load. Just see how many restrictions race circuits have on them nowadays for environmental reasons despite a few of them being NEXT to airports. There is no rationality here. The Cancel Mansell campaign being a casing point.
What is clear is the FIA, with various schemes, are going quite far in boosting the credibility of motor racing as a sport. If you read as many press releases from them as I do regarding various formulas and new championships you'll see there is a clear emphasis on improving the credibility of motor racing both in regards to the environment and as a sporting spectacle. What Ferrari did was going against what the FIA have been trying to achieve for several years now.
The Prius is all about government pay-outs and the image of 'being green' and had nothing to do with saving the planet.
My girlfriend has a Prius - for the sole reason that the above means she has low tax, no congestion charges, and slightly better day-to-day economy than an equivalent car of the same size. She isn't trying to save the planet, but it is helping her save her wallet!!!
The FIA are trying to dumb down the sport - it had enough spectacle as it was - certainly enough to make the whole world tune in every fortnight. What needs attention is not "professional" motorsport (e.g. BTCC upwards), but club motorsport, where that tracks are devoid of spectators, and often not for lack of exciting races! Maybe that's not an FIA remit though, but one for the national racing authority or even local councils....?
Anyway, what Ferrari did was right. It was the way they did it that upset those people that bet on results. Surely normal non-betting fans don't really care that much? Massa won in principle but lost respect. Alonso got more points but lost respect. Ferrari got maximum points but lost respect. Even if they hadn't swapped the drivers, we wouldn't have had more of a race, as Alonso wasn't going to beat Massa fair and square anyway.
I guess what people really wanted is for Alonso to catch, race with and pass Massa in an exciting way. But that wasn't going to happen and didn't happen. So what have we actually lost? Nothing. A Ferrari one two was going to occur. It did occur.
I would wager (even though I am a non-betting man) that more than half of the 1-2 victories in Grand Prix racing since its beginning have been 'manipulated'. Don't blame Ferrari. Blame the FIA for imposing a silly rule that isn't compatible with the sport. Even at my level of racing I've agreed to let someone else past into the first corner (so that I didn't interfere with his race, as he was in a different class to me).
"There was delight in Italy this morning following clear signs that the
Ferrari F1 team is back on form.
‘We ‘ave been very worried that Ferrari was not at the top of the game this season,’ said Frode Voluminosa of fan club Tifosi Inglese. ‘For sure, we saw moments of the old brilliance such as blatantly testing new parts and the calling it a “photo session”, but there was not the consistent rule bending and total disregard for the sport that we ‘ope for’.
‘Of course, there was plenty of moaning,’ Mr Voluminosa continued. ‘And this gave us ‘ope that de team still ‘ad within them the burning spirit to really insult the intelligence of all F1 fans and basically, ‘ow you say, take a massive shit all over the sport’.
Following the Scuderia’s blatant team orders at the German Grand Prix,
Ferrari fans are filled with a renewed belief that the rest of this season
the team will be able to lie, cheat and whinge its way to the top.
‘We are committed to a Ferrari world championship victory in 2010,’ said a
spokesman. Unfortunately, that spokesman was FIA president Jean Toad."
My interpretation of the rule is rather simple - don't take the piss. The rule is there basically to stop this kind of situation where a driver quite clearly lifts off the throttle and lets another driver through. It doesn't take a genius to figure out how to arrange a position swap without making the whole sport look stupid. The FIA don't want to be put in this position hence the ruling.
Ferrari has a procedural problem. They needed to have discussed this situation before the race. They didn't and now face, and rightly so, exclusion from the race. Not for the actual rule break, but for bringing the sport into disrepute which they certainly have. The overwhelming feeling within' the general public is the race was a farce.
What I do know is the FIA actively want to avoid any controversy and questions about the validity of motor racing as a sport. Just read what the FIA release about new championships and concepts.
Having a team swap drivers doesn't invalidate the sporting contest - it's a sport for teams and drivers, and the teams are thus in a position to choose whether to allow racing within the team or not, to further both the team and the drivers championship best. That should be allowed.
The rule should be removed forthwith.
The FIA has done more to bring the sport into disrepute than any team over the last 60 years. It is they who should be banned, not a team serving the interests of its drivers and itself.
The WHOLE difference between Massa and Hamilton / Kovalalalailainnnenenenn (I MAY have mistyped that)is that in Kovalala's case, the driver very willingly moved over. That is, he deliberatly let his teammate pass, and it did not appear reluctante. Meaning, it looks like it was Kovalainen's decision. Plus, Hamilton at that time WAS much much faster, and just drove off into the horizon.
In massa's case, he was very clearly reluctant as hell to move over (I doubt that was the first time his engineer told him alonso was faster), then did it deliberatly (like Barrichelo did), to show EVERYONE he was not happy with it. Worse still, he managed to keep up with alonso, just left a gap big enough that he did not have to drive in most of the dirty air.
So its clearly apples and oranges here. This has also happened in this season - mclaren drivers are very obviously being told to "save fuel" when it really means "dont overtake each other". However, they do have a go at each other. The MAIN difference here is that standing team orders are ok (and there is no way of checking that, really), but active "do this or Ill have your hide" in-race orders are a no-no.
"Alonso is faster" is a blatant LIE, as he was NOT faster. (at least not THAT much faster).
If rob smedly had told massa "alonso is in danger of getting overtaken. if he passes you, you can bottle up vettel so we get a 1-2", massa might of his own accord drop back to bottle up vettel, and the fans would not be angry. That would be good, smart team management. This was just idiotic, cause theres NO FREAKING POINT. Alonso is not gotta get WDC, Massa is now PISSED, Ferrari just created a huge rift in the pit, and next race massa and alonso might come to blows, Redbull style.
"Ferrari could be banned from Formula 1 after Felipe Massa appeared to follow team orders in allowing team-mate Fernando Alonso to pass him and claim victory in Sunday's German Grand Prix."
May I also add, this isn't just a sport, it's a business.
So, from my POV, Massa did what any (good) employee (that's all he is) that was given instructions, to carry out, would do. But perhaps not the best way to deal with this whole situation.
I wouldn't say Massa has lost any respect. If anything, he has gained sympathy for being the victim of team orders. Only a minority would suggest that he should have, as an employee, disregarded an order from his employer (thereby breaking his contract). He has handled himself with a fair degree of dignity through the matter, which is what you would expect having seen him handle the agony of losing the championship in 2008.
Fair comment, but ultimately the money that the business gets comes from the TV deals, the sponsors, etc., who in turn get their money from the fans, who might actually prefer to see a proper race.
In essence I agree that teams should be free to do what they want. However looking at it from a commercial point of view. Muili-make manufacturer racing is only really viable at that sort of level if it maintains fans and spectators. There is no customer base for F1 cars so they need to make money from the value fans bring.
The FIA can not ignore the fans view on this because they are the life blood of the sport. They provide the value for sponsors to invest in it. Companies certainly don't want to be in a sport associated with 'fixing'. A lot of the cars are bare as it is, this will not help.
I've always said the real championship is the WCC. That's the one that best reflects the real sport. This whole situation could be solved if the WDC was ditched, but it won't because commercially the WDC is more valuable. And because of it's value, manipulation of that very championship isn't digestible for most F1 fans. If F1 really is team sport get rid of the WDC.
It appears the teams want the best of both worlds. They want all the attention the WDC brings, but they do not want to race to spirit of that championship. This is the reason we get this conflict of interests.
But by getting Alonso ahead of Massa, they WERE racing in the spirit of the WDC as well as the WCC. It's a team sport but with two separate drivers in each team that are also eligible for a championship.
F1 makes money. This won't cost them anything - especially as all the teams (except the slowest 5) need to LOSE sponsorship if they are to work within a budget cap!!!
The race wasn't fixed. It was manipulated by a team in a position to do so. Would anyone have cared if it was for 9th place? No. But it's the same thing - a team doing what is best overall. Massa won't win the championship this year. Alonso has a slight chance. Back the driver with that chance.
If the 'fans' don't like it, then they need to consider the sport they support and think about what is entailed within it.
The same could be said for the teams. If they don't like it go race something else. F1 has changed, and if they can't deal with it, then tough luck!
The FIA are fully within their rights to enforce this rule how they see fit. If I was the head of an organisation like the FIA I wouldn't want my pinnacle product being the butt of jokes and ridicule which F1 is right now.
F1 teams only care about themselves, whereas the FIA has to take care of much bigger picture. I am playing devil's advocate a bit here but this is how I see it
I think the rule itself is unworkable but taking everything into account Ferrari are on thin ground and I wouldn't be surprised to see the WMSC come down quite hard on them.
It's interesting reading and hearing those opinions which are along the lines of "why can't Ferrari just admit they used team orders and stop treating us like we're stupid?!" They are denying that they used team orders because otherwise they'd lose the 43 points they picked up in the race and at the same time cost themselves any realistic chance of fighting for either of the championships... May it be possible that those of you making that point are in fact stupid?
There also seem to be some very self-contradictory opinions regarding what makes the incident so very wrong. Some of you seem to be saying that had Massa moved over to give Alonso a lesser position, say 10th position for example, it would not be an issue. I would assume that almost everyone here would share that opinion. Okay, fair enough. But that would imply that your problem isn't with teams breaking the team orders rule, but is actually with teams swapping their drivers around for the race victory. In which case, you can't claim that what Ferrari have done is any worse than teams doing the same thing pre-2002.
Either the issue is with teams breaking the team orders rule - implying that it's wrong for teams to swap their drivers in any position, be it 1st and 2nd or 23rd and 24th - or it's only wrong for teams to swap their drivers for the meaningful positions, and therefore it's always been wrong.
Others are saying the issue is that Ferrari did it so blatantly. Some of you are even highlighting the fact that this was largely down to Massa wanting to make it obvious that he was being forced to let Alonso past. Whose fault was that then?
Clearly they broke the rules, James. My problem is with the irrationality of most people posting in this thread, and generally in the off topic area of this forum. It's very frustrating trying to participate in a discussion where 80-90% of people are completely incapable of reading people's posts and coming to a reasonable and considered conclusion, often contradicting themselves simply to support a biased and/or pre-determined opinion.
Would you tell me if you think teams should also be punished for swapping their drivers when they're not racing in the points? Be honest.
Edit: I think Hamilton's "lie-gate" scandal was a little different in that he lied in order to earn Trulli a 25 second penalty and deny him a podium finish. That was truly malicious and a very different incident to the one we saw on Sunday. Ferrari have clearly been lying to the press and to the FIA, but I can't believe any other team would be acting differently in the same situation, with 43 points at stake. They aren't actively seeking to damage other teams or drivers.
