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France did this for security reasons, but I've got to admit, it's pretty useless for the most part. I understand the security issues of having a person wear a burka in an airport, or a bank, but does that really warrant a straight and full ban? There should just be a list of places you can't go with your face hidden, simple as that. If you enter there with anything covering your face, they send Bob with a chainsaw on you.

It's a bit the same as having to leave a backpack at the front of the store when you enter. It happens to me from time to time, and I just remove my backpack, go on with my shopping and pick it up at the end. I know I wouldn't have stolen anything anyway, and odds are that nobody with a burka's going to steal anything, but you can't count on odds when regarding to security.

Quote from Bose321 :

I try to say that a baseball cap is not something you wear all the time, and is not the main part of your clothing, like a pair of pants, and a burka is, so there is a difference.

So ?

@ boosterfire
That idea actually sounds quite realistic and possible .

I find this halarious/amusing/confusing, the muslims I know ( are all girls ) none of them wear their HiJab 24/7, and they say its optional, media is a scary thing :\

media, especially tv sucks, if you want to know something you have to find out on your own...

imho people should be allowed to hide their face if they want to; in my country there's law which forbids face hiding during public meetings, protests,... in order to deanonymize possible criminals

what is france trying to do is protecting their country and culture and i agree with them but there has to be another way; for example i would do it like in switzerland - forbid or significantly reduce building of minarets, again its only protecting our own, not attacking anyone else...its same like the christ cross thing in schools, or pupil who demanded taking his "holy dagger" to school...

imho everyone is welcome to europe, to france, to england, to slovakia, even to my home, but it is not nice when someone wants his own rules in your home...its like missionaries in papua...or like us army the world police...

An excellent article by David Mitchell which sums up my opinion better than I ever could: http://www.guardian.co.uk/comm ... itchell-burqa-ban-tattoos

Quote :

The loss of liberty incurred by any alternative principle is too high a price to pay to stop people making dicks of themselves. But, if people are using their freedoms to make dicks of themselves, other people should be able to say so.

Spot on really, I'm sick of people harping on about how you have no right to take away their 'freedoms' just because you disagree with the way they do things. If essentially you're saying I should not be allowed to criticise you, then isn't that violating my 'freedoms'?

Quote from Crashgate3 :

An excellent article by David Mitchell which sums up my opinion better than I ever could: http://www.guardian.co.uk/comm ... itchell-burqa-ban-tattoos

Great article. This passage summed my thoughts up exactly.


"Stupid people are thinking about an issue that doesn't need to be thought about and a YouGov survey says 67% of us want full-face veils outlawed. Just when I thought my estimation of humanity couldn't fall any further, I discover that two-thirds of my fellow countrymen are, or at least were for the duration of taking a survey, morons."

France would surrender whatever the situation....

it ain't a biggie.

These laws miss the point.

The problem is not the burka itself but the fact that these people are not integrated, do not wish to be integrated and are pretty much acting like an invader. IMO they should be kicked out.

France is walking on its head but it's not something new!

I fail to see your logic, Maelstrom. Why does it matter if a group of people resist assimilation into the local culture? If you moved to another country and were told you couldn't walk around in public in a t-shirt and jeans because it was offensive to the natives, what would you do/say?

Quote from Forbin :

I fail to see your logic, Maelstrom. Why does it matter if a group of people resist assimilation into the local culture? If you moved to another country and were told you couldn't walk around in public in jeans, a t-shirt, and sneakers because it was offensive the natives and/or illegal, what would you do/say?

In some countries that is the case, well not exactly jeans and a t-shirt but certain western fashions would get you in trouble, it'd be nice to see some tolerance on both sides.

What if you moved to a country where everyone walked around with their privates hanging out but otherwise clothed? You decide you want to be covered up, but everyone looks at you funny for it and suddenly there's a big uproar about your lack of conformity. People deserve to see what your junk looks like, after all. How would that make you feel?

I don't care who wears a Burka, what I mean is it'd be nice to be able to co-exist in other nations which are predominately Muslim as an example while still living by my cultural norms without being frowned upon or somehow punished.

On the whole the Western world is now far more tolerant of Muslim culture in particular than Muslim culture is of the Western world, we allow this to happen because of our guilt for screwing over people of other ethnicities for centuries, but I don't see why I should feel guilty or make concessions for the actions of people who lived before I was born and had no control over.

It really doesn't matter how tolerant Muslims are, in general, of westerners. Everyone deserves some level of respect regardless of their background until their personal actions prove they are undeserving. Clothing has no bearing on this.

Quote from Forbin :

I fail to see your logic, Maelstrom. Why does it matter if a group of people resist assimilation into the local culture?

It depends how you define "resist assimilation". It is not really a matter of cloths, foods or religions but more about Communitarianism , people staying amongst themselves, who don't give a crap about how they are accepted by the locals. They don't want to adapt to the country but they expect the country to adapt to them.

Maybe it would be more understandable if I added that they are very often racist against the local?

For me it looks very much like an invasion. No war there, but the consequences are the same.

Quote from Forbin :

If you moved to another country and were told you couldn't walk around in public in a t-shirt and jeans because it was offensive to the natives, what would you do/say?

If the locals were to take that as an insult or an agression I would or I wouldn't go there at all! I think it is a minimum of respect.

Quote from Forbin :

It really doesn't matter how tolerant Muslims are, in general, of westerners. Everyone deserves some level of respect regardless of their background until their personal actions prove they are undeserving. Clothing has no bearing on this.

Its very true, but its the kind of respect that although you may get off the majority of people here, you are less liekly to get abroad theres a lot of taking and not enough giving.

Quote from Forbin :

It really doesn't matter how tolerant Muslims are, in general, of westerners. Everyone deserves some level of respect regardless of their background until their personal actions prove they are undeserving. Clothing has no bearing on this.

Yes. This, a thousand times this.

Respect needs to be earned, but people should be given a 'default' level just for being member of the human race. You can then adjust this up or down according to their (and this means the individual, not everyone who happens to be the same race/colour/religion/name/shoe-size) actions.

Quote from Maelstrom :

Maybe it would be more understandable if I added that they are very often racist against the local?

I have never, ever met a person of a different ethnicity who wasn't nasty to the 'majority' without a good reason. That reason being: they are treated nasty from the second they step onto 'foreign' land, just because they wear different clothes, have a different skin color, follow a different set of rules that concern a 'god(s)' who may or may not exist, talk with an accent, blah blah blah... All these things aren't even important! yellow breeds yellow... and racism breeds racism

If you treat them nicely as a society, they will treat you nicely and with respect. And likely be more open to the idea of assimilating. Treating someone like doggy poo will only cause them to return the sentiment, and stick to their traditions as a memory of a place where they were treated with respect. simple as.
and forcing them to abandon their religious customs stinks like shit to me

an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth will leave us all blind and toothless
"Be excellent to eachother" -the most excellent Bill and Ted