good decision son.
A great way to start and end a useful discussion.
Hopefully we'll see you in both genres. :d
Hopefully we'll see you in both genres. :d
End discussion?
Back to LFS vs Rfactor then I suppose ?
Back to LFS vs Rfactor then I suppose ?
_different_, yes, _better_ - I personally don't think so. That's only subjective of course, but all arguments about "feel" are basically subjective.
Some things are for certain though, whether some things are off or not in iRacing, they sure have more data to prove the validity of their models.
Also, you cannot claim that LFS would produce "better" (more realistic) results with the iRacing data in the areas that it doesn't model, which is for one the majority of iRacing's cars' suspensions.
I think the dynamic response of LFS's road tyres (and probably the slicks too, but I can't judge that) is superior to mostly all other sims, but on the whole the experience is too similar between the different cars. I do not really fault the devs for that, but that's precisely where a lot of the (otherwise ridiculous amount of) money goes at iRacing: obtaining real-world data.
For me, it's quite an enlightening experience (and also a bit more believable in some circumstances) that I literally cannot complete my first lap in most of the cars in iRacing and yet end up racing quite reliably hardly an hour later. This means that the cars are quite noticeably different to one another, they are not trivial to drive, yet even a not very talented bloke like me can keep them on the track (and doesn't end up last
) after a little amount of getting used to. But the main thing is that both LFS and iRacing are currently working on the most important aspect of a racing sim, the tyre model. And I'll be there to try both new models when they come out
Looks like iRacing brings out the worst in people. Richard used to be one of the nicest people in LFS, at least IMO.
(partly kidding)
You cannot compare LFS and iRacing. iRacing is a completely different story! If you don´t know iRacing and its features and overall meaning, please stop such a stupid comments. Don´t be silly.
Yeah, I suspect there were some threat PM's sent to help him to that. 
My guess is verbal rape, on topic, I am getting bored and might buy iRacing again.... I MUST BE MAD. 
I never received any bad PM's, I recanted because it was my bad to judge the game (or simulation) that fast and since I'm not a dumb kid I know what I do wrong and I admit it to finally apologize. I also consider that posting this thread had been really helpful for me because it made me take a look at the situation in many different angles.
The best way to learn is to get punched in the face.
i recently purchased the 3months for $14 iracing offer just to see what the fuss was about, currently racing the solstice rookie @ lime rock 
, having to buy extra cars / tracks isnt something im going to get into just yet and really only interested in SS and british/gp tracks. 2nd race @ lime rock completed 20laps and come 2nd after some qual and practice .but the tires after 20laps didnt seem any different than after 2 laps 
. i drove quite attacking and tyres were screaming for 20laps..in LFS they would of punctured im sure...so what sim is most accurate @ present in simulating the tyre wear, i cant seem to find any info in game of tyre temp / wear does it exist? tia
, having to buy extra cars / tracks isnt something im going to get into just yet and really only interested in SS and british/gp tracks. 2nd race @ lime rock completed 20laps and come 2nd after some qual and practice .but the tires after 20laps didnt seem any different than after 2 laps . i drove quite attacking and tyres were screaming for 20laps..in LFS they would of punctured im sure...so what sim is most accurate @ present in simulating the tyre wear, i cant seem to find any info in game of tyre temp / wear does it exist? tiaYou have no live tyre data in iRacing.
If you go to the pit screen after a session, then you can see the wear and temps.
If you go to the pit screen after a session, then you can see the wear and temps.
Some cars it is much more noticable than others, it all depends on the type of tyres, the car and how aggressive the setup is.
The Soltice being a rookie car with a mild fixed setup and most likely pretty hard wearing tyres will last the race distance no problem.
The V8 Supercar as an example will see a decent drop in lap times over the course of a race due to tyre degregation somewhere in the order of 0.5 -2 sec a lap depending on driver and setup. Also in the V8 Supercar (as an example) you will see that qualify sets and race sets do give a significant difference in lap time approx 0.5 - 1 sec as running a full-on qualify set in a race will see rapid tyre wear.
The Soltice being a rookie car with a mild fixed setup and most likely pretty hard wearing tyres will last the race distance no problem.
The V8 Supercar as an example will see a decent drop in lap times over the course of a race due to tyre degregation somewhere in the order of 0.5 -2 sec a lap depending on driver and setup. Also in the V8 Supercar (as an example) you will see that qualify sets and race sets do give a significant difference in lap time approx 0.5 - 1 sec as running a full-on qualify set in a race will see rapid tyre wear.
cheers for clearing that up Glenn , it was the answer i was expecting
I was joking.
Dont think there are people sad enough on these forums to send someone threat PM's.
iRacing is a great sim.
there's space for all sims providing they're competent (and even some incompetent ones) as they all reward different people with differing tastes / needs.
iracing has real life tracks / cars and bangs out updates every 13 weeks and tweaks / fixes in between, usually good, occasionally flawed but you pay for that level of progression. unless you pay for a hosted session, you have to go with what series / races iracing want you to race but driving standards are normally good due to the licencing system
rfactor has lots of third party content providing an almost limitless supply of real life and fictional cars and tracks, none of which costs after the original sim, some good, some bad. lots of series / races but can be a pain to ensure you have the right content for the race you want and be allowed to join a series, driving standards depend on third parties enforcing rules
LFS has mostly fictional content but that content feels good with consistent quality and until S3 is released any new content / updates comes at no extra cost but the release of any updates is limited and. lots of servers available at any time but frequently most are offering the same car / track combos with other content hardly being used. driving standards depend on third parties.
to compare sims is like comparing soccer,rugby league and rugby union. they're all ball sports, all have their fans and the vast majority of those fans enjoy more than one ball sport, there's only a few fans who insist that any ball sport apart from their prefered sport is the work of the devil
personally i love iracing but i also love LFS and in an ideal world when my health / time allowed, i'd do my serious racing on iracing and fun driving on LFS whilst using rfactor for single player driving of cars / tracks that aren't available elsewhere.
P.S. just because i've concentrated on these 3 (as they're PC sims and the ones that usually end up in this sim's better than that sim threads) doesn't mean i've any less regard for forza 3, GT5, GTR etc
iracing has real life tracks / cars and bangs out updates every 13 weeks and tweaks / fixes in between, usually good, occasionally flawed but you pay for that level of progression. unless you pay for a hosted session, you have to go with what series / races iracing want you to race but driving standards are normally good due to the licencing system
rfactor has lots of third party content providing an almost limitless supply of real life and fictional cars and tracks, none of which costs after the original sim, some good, some bad. lots of series / races but can be a pain to ensure you have the right content for the race you want and be allowed to join a series, driving standards depend on third parties enforcing rules
LFS has mostly fictional content but that content feels good with consistent quality and until S3 is released any new content / updates comes at no extra cost but the release of any updates is limited and. lots of servers available at any time but frequently most are offering the same car / track combos with other content hardly being used. driving standards depend on third parties.
to compare sims is like comparing soccer,rugby league and rugby union. they're all ball sports, all have their fans and the vast majority of those fans enjoy more than one ball sport, there's only a few fans who insist that any ball sport apart from their prefered sport is the work of the devil
personally i love iracing but i also love LFS and in an ideal world when my health / time allowed, i'd do my serious racing on iracing and fun driving on LFS whilst using rfactor for single player driving of cars / tracks that aren't available elsewhere.
P.S. just because i've concentrated on these 3 (as they're PC sims and the ones that usually end up in this sim's better than that sim threads) doesn't mean i've any less regard for forza 3, GT5, GTR etc
So when you turn your steering wheel in your real car... I suppose nothing really happens there too?
Good Lord what a horrible thought... Every car with a locked miracle differential, terminal understeer that has to be dialed out with ridiculous setup options, and indestructable cars. Righto, that sounds much better. Most of this thread is fair, but asserting that iR's tire model even for a spreadsheet sim isn't generally more accurate than LFS is goofy.
Hopefully it's almost a moot point anyway though, I'm looking foward to comparing two shiny new physical models from the two best in the industry.
I don't think i completly understand your post! Explain please.
But, for sure it's a big big big big difference because simracing is alot on sight and not on the feeling in your whole body. It's just a whole different thing.
And i don't know why. LFS has just a bit better "feel", Iracing and Rfactor seem way to "hard" when a car gets in oversteer sometimes its impossible to correct. In lfs thats just a bit better.
So when you get your real car sideways.... How easy is that to correct? I've saved my car a few times on track through dumb luck and reflex. That is an easy to drive awd rallycar that really is point and shoot. I can't imagine holding a slide in a rwd car to be easy at all, especially in a race setting. One thing hanging the ass out in a turn, but losing it, and then hauling it back in must be really, really hard. I think iRacing got the better feel there, the cars bite back, where the LFS cars feels way too easy and forgiving.
I've been sideways (very sideways) in a RWD car (RX-8) in sopping wet conditions. It was easy as pie, even with worn tires. And I know from racing karts in the wet and the dry that wet conditions increase the difficulty quite a bit.
In cars with really short wheelbases, like the Solstice, and on dry pavement, it's even easier - flick, flick, done.
Just driving along the pit lane, LFS feels very game-y. I wasn't at all impressed with LFS until I really started hammering it. Everything was very natural feeling at speed.
iRacing blew me away the first time I pulled out of pit lane, but as soon as I started really pushing it started to crumble.
The reasons why I still play iRacing are the tracks and the racing service, which are both perfect as far as I'm concerned.
Like someone else said, what sims people prefer probably has everything to do with how they drive. A visual driver is probably more likely to say that iRacing is the pinnacle. Someone that drives with their ass is probably more likely to say that LFS is the ultimate. Someone that drives with their hands is probably most likely to say NKP is nirvana.
1. Locked diff, understandable.
2. Ridiculous setup options, both sims (iR is improving but it actually has updates
)3. Indestructible cars, both sims. iR (before the last update) had it where you could flip down the straight and then go right back into the race and your car would be fine. It was a coin toss on whether you're car would be undrivable or not. In a Pro race I got crashed T1 L1 and thought my race was done. I took a car that I had to turn my wheel 90 degrees to the right to go straight and drove up to 10th position by the end of that race.
Both need some work, but I still believe LFS' overall tire model is more advanced than iR's. We can't really prove each other wrong because no one truely knows how the tires work. We just have to go on feel and then it is all a matter of opinion. In other words, it thoroughly sucks.
I also know or know off many that have died because they were very comfortable with speed and haning the tail out, these are mostly kids in there 20s although one prominate example which happened not less than 10km from where I live was Peter Brock who had vast experience. While it can be done irl and often can feel easy or look easy if you take it for granted it can also kill, so perhaps is not as easy as it feels or we believe.
The fact is if you are well within the traction limit of a car and you hang the tail out its a whole different kettle of fish to being at or near the limit of adhesion before the tail steps out.
Some other facts are that road cars are designed to be 'safe' i.e. to have more predictable and controlable responses in emergency situtaions than race preped cars, even race engineers set up cars with their drivers ability in mind.
We also know that to detect a slide and react in a sim is never going to be as quick reaction as we can irl. Every hundreth of a second delay in reacting is a step closer to not being able to recover the slide, hence why in sim racing to be fast I am constantly pre-empting slides by semi correcting before they even happen.
Another fact is irl most drivers start well below the grip limit and slowly work up to the limit of adhesion, in Sim racing most tend to do the opposite we drive too hot and reduce our pace until we can stay on the track. That alone gives the impression of funcky physics compared to real life simply because our behaviour is so different.
These points all have been brought up in the past with LFS physics and aply to any sim physics. With all these things in mind I find that the physics are pretty good. I mean once you are in the right ball park with speed and line in a corner, if you do slide it is entirely catchable and if you spin it will not end up in a wall it will be semi controlable/predicatble.
I mean if you drive at 9/10ths on a track your familiar with you can drive it all day and control any slides that may happen, if you try do a whole race at 10/10s then the chances of you making an error of judgement and spinning are probably 10x higher. LFS physics and track environments are a little more predictable than iRacing atm and therefore will allow you to drive closer to 10/10s.
Irl I do not believe that drivers are able to drive that close to the limit as the 'limit' is different for every lap they do and so they can't get it perfect, which is why you do see the odd lap which is sometimes refered to as an 'lap of the Gods' as with Greg Murphy at Bathurst 2003 where he put it on pole by a second! If you look at that video that is how most Sim drivers try drive all the time then they wonder why the tyre physics are funky and they spin out more than irl
Were the reality is when a driver drives that close to the edge for an entire lap and pulls it off (i.e. it is actually quick and he doesn't crash) everyone shacks their heads in disbelief, were if you can't do that in Sim racing your slow
I was referring to the fact that the LFS tire model currently has so much innate understeer that unless you have a bizarre setup designed to make the car twitchier than an ADHD crackhead with Tourettes, you end up dialing in way more steering than you should need to.
Though iR needs the updates it's getting in this area, I wouldn't call the setup options ridiculous in comparison to what you need to use in LFS to be remotely competitive.
All that's relevant is the current state of both sims, here today
I'll could all but guarantee that LFS' model is more advanced even at this point, but that doesn't make it more accurate. It's a better approach otherwise DK wouldn't be doing the same thing. However by definition, they have current data up to and a hair beyond "the limit" for all the tires they're simulating... the only reason DK is going physical is because it's a far better solution when you pass that limit if you know what to expect, and also he's changed the way they interact with off camber contact which should be a large difference alone. But basically, even now you set up iR cars much closer to the way you would a real car than you can dream of in current LFS. That pretty much proves the point right there since that would not be true if the forces generated by the tires in LFS were closer to real data, since everything rides on the tire forces (no pun intended).
Lovely writing mate.
I turn more in iR than I do in LFS.
You should see the set that won the oval Pro race Wednesday night, the "realism" in that set is completely laughable. The set (looking at the weight distribution) looks impossible to turn, yet all the other settings are very absurd and make the car looser. This somehow creates a comfortable and insanely fast car.
I was trying to be nice with that bit.
I think both sims are far off in the accuracy department, for all we know nkp could be the closest. However I believe DK's intentions are great, but we can say the same about Scawen's. We've had this discussion over and over really. Both sims have their flaws in the tire department, and most of them are opposite flaws, so it is hard to compare.
The tire model seems different in each car you run in iRacing. I know you BBT are probably more in the road side, I am more in the oval. Road could be close to feeling good, but those top class oval cars on the limit feel like crap unless you make a stable set, but then you are either slow or your setup is erratic.
I tried iRacing and...
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