Quote from z-ro 8 :

That's a contradiction.
You can't have balanced cars and one be better than the others.

No, and since it's either FZR being faster than XRR or opposite, I vote for the old GT2.

Herein lies the problem. Too many people are offering opinions without any data.
Ideally we need race conditions for accurate results.
This would entail deko setting airio to use the average of more than 20 laps instead of the current 5 it has now, and seeing what each car does then, instead of everyone and their mother doing R2/R2 one lap qualy runs like they are now.
There's not enough people that have done more than 5 laps, and until there is there should be no complaining.

That is what fzr drivers are complaining about, 1%
And its already been said the administrator doesn't want to to weight....

Quote from z-ro 8 :

Herein lies the problem. Too many people are offering opinions without any data.
Ideally we need race conditions for accurate results.
This would entail deko setting airio to use the average of more than 20 laps instead of the current 5 it has now, and seeing what each car does then, instead of everyone and their mother doing R2/R2 one lap qualy runs like they are now.
There's not enough people that have done more than 5 laps, and until there is there should be no complaining.

me and phil diaz have done all of this. I'm now stick to death of testing..

Quote from z-ro 8 :

That is what fzr drivers are complaining about, 1%
And its already been said the administrator doesn't want to to weight....

No they are complaining because they see the car as being too slow overall now. Last season it was pretty even already, just the quicker XRR drivers like Mike Saidl often had issues. Quite honestly balancing the FXR so it is quickest on 2 of the 6 tracks with last seasons balance is good enough to me thus it is my opinion that the 2010 season was already good enough in terms of restriction.

Fair enough. But what I'm saying is there's too many people basing their assumptions on hotlap times, not stint times.
I don't think anyone has the right to bitch if they can't put in work beforehand.

Because the FZR was faster.

Good point.

Can anyone go in NDR and type !avg gt9 and see exactlly how many people have actually done more than 5 laps and post it here?

Quote from Drift King CZ :

Because the FZR was faster.

Interesting. I don't think it was with those restrictions. I think that often when a good driver, aka you, was using the XRR you were usually the quickest out there.

I categorically against for the new restrictions. I think many people will be disappointed if will be accept new restrictions.

Bored in class again, ill try to help 'show' the issue, or advantages let's say, that have changed.

The xrr on r2 tires will be faster start of stint, but why wouldn't it? It has less fuel. The counter advantage for the fzr is that it has 'better' tires. Also as the stint runs to the end, the fzr and xrr weight due to fuel is much more similar, and that is when the fzr will shine.

On tracks like we1 and possibly as6r, the xrr will most likely run r3 tires compared to fzr in its r2/r3 tires. Sure once again the xrr might be pretty quick start of stint because of fuel, but the fzr will turn that around end of stint on lower fuel and most likely better tires.

The xrr still has the disadvantage of being able to flip and the only one to get stuck in the gravel.

When balancing the xrr/fzr no one normally thinks about the fuel advantage, even in gr1 balancing. When you want xrr/fzr to be even, most only run the first 25-50% of a stint to see the xrr slightly quicker or both cars even, no one ever drives the full stint to see the fzr burn off the fuel and have the better looking tires end of stint to reel in the xrr.

Finally to add in the factor that when xrr has r2 tires, the fzr can stretch its stint if it is using r2/r3 tires. There's many things you have to factor out when balancing, and q times are about 5% of it.

The test race is there to test the restrictions, because we won't know how it is in racing conditions until we put it in race conditions. Deko already said there's another test race after this, the official one to test teams iirc, so don't jump to conclusions just yet. Let's test it properly, and we can then easily analyze which restrictions will probably be for the best.

If FZR and XRR are about as fast over a stint, and FZR is faster on low fuel, it will obviously qualify better. Given 2 cars as fast as each other people will obviously chose the one who qualifies better. Why not penalise the FZR for quali only so it is as fast as the XRR.

Might be a bit late to introduce this but I think a way to encourage a balanced field would be good. (as many FZR as XRR as FXR). For example, the FXR will be slower at the high speed tracks, if half the field is FXR then it isn't much of a disadvantage, but if there is only a few FXR it becomes a pretty big disadvantage. Maybe a weight penalty if there is more than 11 cars of 1 kind and a % advantage if there is less than 7 of one kind. Could also be done with points but I think the weight/% would have more impact.

I would say give all the cars the same peek Power (kW/HP) so they are equal and the disadvantages and advantages of the cars then can count.
"Oh no FX2 is too slow": yes it's the easiest, 4x4, bad balanced, so what do you expect?
"damn that FZ2 is too fast!" yes it might be, because it has wider tires, has more weight on rear and that's how racing cars tend to be balanced, and you don't have to wait for the turbo to spin up to give you power, but it also consumes more fuel -> the car is probably heavier, etc.
"XR2" around 50:50 balance, with fuel it shifts to rear, FR RWD, but normal tires and lazy turbo

I do get it what you're trying to do, to equal the cars with restrictions by comparing times of several drivers. But many tracks driven by aliens would be needed :/

I drive FX- just for fun, XR- for race and when I can handle the FZ- I choose it, I'm a NA porsche lover. (Mouse driver so FZ- is quite hard...)

Quote from JackCY :

I would say give all the cars the same peek Power (kW/HP) so they are equal and the disadvantages and advantages of the cars then can count.
"Oh no FX2 is too slow": yes it's the easiest, 4x4, bad balanced, so what do you expect?
"damn that FZ2 is too fast!" yes it might be, because it has wider tires, has more weight on rear and that's how racing cars tend to be balanced, and you don't have to wait for the turbo to spin up to give you power, but it also consumes more fuel -> the car is probably heavier, etc.
"XR2" around 50:50 balance, with fuel it shifts to rear, FR RWD, but normal tires and lazy turbo

I do get it what you're trying to do, to equal the cars with restrictions by comparing times of several drivers. But many tracks driven by aliens would be needed :/

I drive FX- just for fun, XR- for race and when I can handle the FZ- I choose it, I'm a NA porsche lover. (Mouse driver so FZ- is quite hard...)

:o
FZ is certainly one of the most unbalanced car...Like a Porsche in fact, this is such an atypical car. few car have their engine into the boot because that sucks. XRR might be better with same engine.

Quote from PMD9409 :

Bored in class again, ill try to help 'show' the issue, or advantages let's say, that have changed.

The xrr on r2 tires will be faster start of stint, but why wouldn't it? It has less fuel. The counter advantage for the fzr is that it has 'better' tires. Also as the stint runs to the end, the fzr and xrr weight due to fuel is much more similar, and that is when the fzr will shine.

On tracks like we1 and possibly as6r, the xrr will most likely run r3 tires compared to fzr in its r2/r3 tires. Sure once again the xrr might be pretty quick start of stint because of fuel, but the fzr will turn that around end of stint on lower fuel and most likely better tires.

The xrr still has the disadvantage of being able to flip and the only one to get stuck in the gravel.

When balancing the xrr/fzr no one normally thinks about the fuel advantage, even in gr1 balancing. When you want xrr/fzr to be even, most only run the first 25-50% of a stint to see the xrr slightly quicker or both cars even, no one ever drives the full stint to see the fzr burn off the fuel and have the better looking tires end of stint to reel in the xrr.

Finally to add in the factor that when xrr has r2 tires, the fzr can stretch its stint if it is using r2/r3 tires. There's many things you have to factor out when balancing, and q times are about 5% of it.

The test race is there to test the restrictions, because we won't know how it is in racing conditions until we put it in race conditions. Deko already said there's another test race after this, the official one to test teams iirc, so don't jump to conclusions just yet. Let's test it properly, and we can then easily analyze which restrictions will probably be for the best.

Don't forget the 5+ second per pit-stop advantage that the turbos have over the FZR as a result of not having to take on as much fuel.

The difference between 60 and 80% of fuel at a pitstop is 3.41s

Quote from MoMo92i :

:o
FZ is certainly one of the most unbalanced car...Like a Porsche in fact, this is such an atypical car. few car have their engine into the boot because that sucks. XRR might be better with same engine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A ... f_gravity_forward_or_back

Not that it is a reliable source but was first to find it there:

Quote :

The rearward weight bias preferred by sports and racing cars results from handling effects during the transition from straight-ahead to cornering. During corner entry the front tires, in addition to generating part of the lateral force required to accelerate the car's center of mass into the turn, also generate a torque about the car's vertical axis that starts the car rotating into the turn. However, the lateral force being generated by the rear tires is acting in the opposite torsional sense, trying to rotate the car out of the turn. For this reason, a car with "50/50" weight distribution will understeer on initial corner entry. To avoid this problem, sports and racing cars often have a more rearward weight distribution. In the case of pure racing cars, this is typically between "40/60" and "35/65".[citation needed] This gives the front tires an advantage in overcoming the car's moment of inertia (yaw angular inertia), thus reducing corner-entry understeer.
Using wheels and tires of different sizes (proportional to the weight carried by each end) is a lever automakers can use to fine tune the resulting over/understeer characteristics.

Yes Porsche is quite unique, hard to setup properly, but if done correctly it's a beast.
You would be surprised, the once most common cars in Czech, Skoda 100/105/120 etc. and the older ones has the same "stupid" engine layout (engine behind the rear wheels), they are just terrible but simple and are still quite common here, average age of the 105/120 is 28 years, still at the beginning of 2010 they had 5.38% share of all registered cars in Czech (Skoda 100/105/120 cars with this engine layout).

Why is this weight distribution IMHO better?
Better cornering, better rear grip. (On a race track. For Rally I would get 50/50 4WD )

Quote from MoMo92i :

:o
FZ is certainly one of the most unbalanced car...Like a Porsche in fact, this is such an atypical car. few car have their engine into the boot because that sucks. XRR might be better with same engine.

do you really feel like porsche is unbalanced car? well it sure isnt the easiest to drive but with a good driver it is insanely quick...
and for example 458 Italia has also engine behind the driver and even people who hate ferrari have to admit that it is hell of a good car... (even though it catches fire too often )
if you feel you cant drive FZR as fast as the other two cars...feel free to choose from them...noone is forcing you to drive "porsche"

Quote from bavorak :

do you really feel like porsche is unbalanced car? well it sure isnt the easiest to drive but with a good driver it is insanely quick...
and for example 458 Italia has also engine behind the driver and even people who hate ferrari have to admit that it is hell of a good car... (even though it catches fire too often )
if you feel you cant drive FZR as fast as the other two cars...feel free to choose from them...noone is forcing you to drive "porsche"

Ferraris are generally 'mid engined' where the engine is behind the driver but in front of the rear wheels. (Like the RAC)

Porsches and the FZ are 'rear engined', where the engine is behind the rear wheels.

Quote from Bean0 :

Ferraris are generally 'mid engined' where the engine is behind the driver but in front of the rear wheels. (Like the RAC)

Porsches and the FZ are 'rear engined', where the engine is behind the rear wheels.

yes after writing the post I realized that porsches have engine at the very back of the car...in contrast with other "behind-driver-engine" cars

Quote from bavorak :

do you really feel like porsche is unbalanced car? well it sure isnt the easiest to drive but with a good driver it is insanely quick...
and for example 458 Italia has also engine behind the driver and even people who hate ferrari have to admit that it is hell of a good car... (even though it catches fire too often )
if you feel you cant drive FZR as fast as the other two cars...feel free to choose from them...noone is forcing you to drive "porsche"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F ... wheel-arch_adhesive_fires
adhesive

---

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R ... eel_drive_layout#Overview

Quote :

A skilled driver, however, can corner faster by taking advantage of this tendency to oversteer, and is also more likely to take turns at a correct speed by braking before turning, and maintaining slight acceleration through the turn. At the end of the turn, the rear weight bias allows for increased rear traction when accelerating, allowing the driver to accelerate sooner, a major advantage in racing.

Of course FMR & RMR layouts are probably better and easier to drive.
Having an engine sticking out of the car in front or rear is not a good idea. But Porsche kind of mastered the RR layout, think of a 911 as a 70 year long evolution of VW Beetle. (60y from Porsche 356) They just know now how to do it so it's drivable

With some cars you step on gas at the apex, with bad cars even after, but with good ones or those with lot of traction+grip you might even just brake-turn-and.floor.the.gas.asap (at least in LFS)

Thanks JackCY, now I know why I don't like / cannot drive the FZR

I'm more like, Brake, turn in while still braking slightly, get on the gas early and progressively ----> Bam! (or Spin in the FZR )

Quote from Commander :

Thanks JackCY, now I know why I don't like / cannot drive the FZR
I'm more like, Brake, turn in while still braking slightly, get on the gas early and progressively ----> Bam! (or Spin in the FZR )

Well it really depends on the setup a lot too, see VHPA with the FZx set loaded, mainly the Damping tab can help you understand.
I can't drive FZR fast, maybe some FZ2 on certain tracks I can manage. (Mouse + Keyb., Gas/Brake - Full/None ==> Drifting/Spinning)

The lost of power per % seems to be very linear. XRR and FXR have the exact same power curve and lose around 5.3 HP per %. FZR loses around 6.7 HP per %. In game LFS only shows integer or rounded numbers.

Edit : You get those by doing the average test it you'll see a pattern really soon. And yeah less power means more lag.

Quote from DeathItself :

The lost of power per % seems to be very linear. XRR and FXR have the exact same power curve and lose around 5.3 HP per %. FZR loses around 6.7 HP per %. In game LFS only shows integer or rounded numbers

ok so how do you get those with decimal point?
well turbo has lag imho lower power --> more lag, the size of the turbo is the same but the intake is smaller