Hi, all.

First, a terrible confession: I have often been using auto-shifting during my brief LFS career. This has been for two reasons. One, I have enough to do trying to find the line, braking points, etc., and attempting to manage the throttle, so leaving the shifting duties out of the equation has (I think) helped me to focus on the more important stuff. Two, if I'm playing late at night, the click of the aluminium paddle shifter on my wheel is ridiculously loud and will lead to my sleeping wife waking up to divorce me.

When I have tried manual shifting on a track/car combination that I'm starting to get familiar with, such as Aston Club in the Formula XR, I've found that I get quite similar lap times. Maybe a shade faster if I get all the shifts right. But then I watched and listened to the in-car view of some of the fast guys, and realized that a lot of people are not lifting off the throttle at all when they change up. This is something that auto-shift does for you automatically (and indeed you can't stop it from happening, I think?) and something that I do instinctively when shifting manually, probably because of time in real cars and playing a lot of NASCAR Racing 2003 on road tracks.

In NR2003 of course, the engine damage model will quickly penalize you (with a blown engine or gear) for never lifting on upshift. Whereas in the current S2 alpha the engine damage modelling seems pretty generous and I get the impression you could shift at full-throttle all day without paying the price. (Not complaining about this and I realize that more accurate engine and gearbox damage simulation is almost certainly coming soon in LFS.)

So, sorry for the rambling, but here's my question. What sort of lap time advantage do you think you get from not lifting the throttle at all on up-shifts? I haven't put in enough laps to be sure, but I get the impression that on Aston Club in the Formula XR I can shave off 0.3 to 0.5 sec / lap by remembering not to lift.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I guess the only danger is getting used to this practice and then getting hammered with blown engines when the damage model is updated.

Some people say its faster and the wr times are done with flat shifting,I lift my self but thats just me.

by the way you won't damage the engine in nr2003 by flat shifting, I did it all the time. The gearbox of a nascar is designed to take it if you rpm match no need for the clutch at all.
In lfs you still need the clutch else the sim wont change the gear, but you don't need to lift on up shift.

Lots of threads about this, have a dig through the rsc site.

flat shifting IS faster (just head to the 'strip to find out for yourself) and it doesn't damage the engine like you'de hope it would, so theroretically it would be a good idea to leave the 'throttle cut' left off. although it's much much more satisfying to lift properly and smoothly (and not MUCH slower), and driving with no aids whatsoever is the most satisfying of all, but the damage engine needs to be a bit more 'breakable' if you get my meaning, you can over-rev the engine with the gears and cause quite a considerable drop in power, but you have really give it some stick in order to notice the damage, i've managed to hammer a UFR into not being able to go faster than 15-20 . but it would be nice if the 'advantege' of flat shifting was outweighed by the damage caused by going 2-3000rpm over the normal redline

Quote from jtr99 :

Two, if I'm playing late at night, the click of the aluminium paddle shifter on my wheel is ridiculously loud and will lead to my sleeping wife waking up to divorce me.

Really? That's weird, I find the twirling of the motor to be much louder than the click of the shifter. What wheel are you using?

Quote from jtr99 :

This is something that auto-shift does for you automatically (and indeed you can't stop it from happening, I think?) and something that I do instinctively when shifting manually, probably because of time in real cars and playing a lot of NASCAR Racing 2003 on road tracks.

If you go to Options => Player you can disable the automatic throttle cut on upshift, the automatic throttle blip on downshift, or the automatic clutch all together.

Any real life car that has a rev limiter will not be damaged by leaving the throttle to the floor when upshifting. Drag racers leave the hammer to the floor for the whole run and it has no ill effects. So long as you don't over-rev the engine (which you can't, with a rev limiter) and there's not already a problem with the engine, it won't hurt anything. The only caveat to this is that if you've got a lot of power, and the right gears, not lifting the throttle when you shift can make you LOSE time because the tires break loose when you grab the next gear.

Revving an engine without a load on it, especially full throttle to redline or beyond is very hard on it. Even with a limiter I would still think it would be pretty bad for it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of rev limiters says that they will not prevent you from over revving on upshift, when the car is effectively in neutral briefly. The same as they'll have no effect on over revving on downshift.

To put my two bob in, I think that you should be heavily punished for flat shifting (or any over revving). 2 or three laps of it should render your car useless. It's more realistic. At least make realistic engine damage an option.

But there is a diiference beatween ordinary road car, and race car.. I also started Flat shifting recently, because i am faster like that.. but i don't know does real life racers lift off the throtle when upshifting??

Quote from Boris Lozac :

But there is a diiference beatween ordinary road car, and race car.. I also started Flat shifting recently, because i am faster like that.. but i don't know does real life racers lift off the throtle when upshifting??

Some gearboxes, like in Formula 1 cars, upmarket Audis, BMWs etc, have automatic throttle cut on upshift, kinda like the driving aid.

I don't think any of the cars in S2 are intended to be like this, so in real life, the driver would simply take his foot off the throttle momentarily while changing gears. Is that what you mean?

Yes, that was i thinking, because i don't lift off the thrortle assuming that that is what raeal racers drive, am i wrong.. ?

Quote from farcar :

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of rev limiters says that they will not prevent you from over revving on upshift, when the car is effectively in neutral briefly. The same as they'll have no effect on over revving on downshift.

To put my two bob in, I think that you should be heavily punished for flat shifting (or any over revving). 2 or three laps of it should render your car useless. It's more realistic. At least make realistic engine damage an option.

Agree here. A (real life) rev limiter will not prevent over revving on 'enthusiastic' downshifting. I notice on some replays that many bang down through the gears quickly to assist braking, resulting in rpms going through the roof. Presumably upshift/downshift techniques will need to change for many once the damage model is finalised or there will be many instances of blown engines.

Hi... just an experience from real life, I had a VL Commodore (aussie car) with a 6 cyl fuel inject motor and rev limiter...
It got stolen and the son of bitches thrashed the hell out of it lol... they reved it so much they broke the engine mounts (bonnet was dented from motor bouncing around inside) damaged the 5 spd gear box (it was always noisy after that) but the engine seemed to have no problems at all so my guess is the rev limiter works very well even in neutral
I think the main area for engine damage would be downshifting too soon as others have said...

Edit: - also when you watch others race online the lag factor makes it seem like there overreving to the max when flat shifting, I personally flat shift a fair bit but also tend to lift off fractionaly aswell depending on the situation.. my RPM never goes into the red the only time i get engine damage is when accidently downshifting to a lower gear than i should have lol

Edit 2: - got me curious so I just checked some replays of myself in a GTi, in N in the pits the RPM will hit 10,500, when I'm racing and flatshift the RPM is always in the 9,100 - 9,500 range and when downshifting aggressively (i dont downshift as aggressively as some though :P) it averages around 9,000 RPM the redline on the GTi is 9,500 so im not even getting close to the rev limiter so its a mute point... maybe different in the more powerful cars though I dont know...

Edit 3: - k i thought what would be the most likely car to have this problem.. the fo8 right well tryed it on that as well, definately has a much faster engine response it goes well into the red on flat shifting... but i notice the rev limiter kicks in at 11,750 rpm and when flat shifting it hits about 11,500 rpm for a fleeting of a second... (watched replay in 1/4 slow motion) im not convinced it actually hits the rev limiter either :/ the engine in the fo8 can handle 11,500 rpm no problem so it shouldnt damage it (i sat in the pits and held it at 11,500 for several seconds without any damage...) so maybe the problem is not the rev limiter but the speed of gear changes able to be achieved

It seems to me that people get confused on flatshifting vs. not using the clutch. Flatshifting you are still using the clutch, just not lifting off the throttle. I think in real racing (I think, not know) that they do NOT flatshift, rather they shift without using the clutch. That is where they are rev matching the engine to the transmission. I see that (rev matching) comment about flatshifting all the time here. You cannot possibly rev match if you are flatshifting. I think flatshifting is unrealistic as real racers would know the dangers of overreving their engine 2-3000 rpms above the redline. Now, not clutching is something that happens in real racing all the time, whether it is sequential shifting or plain old Nascar 4-speed box. I don't get to see much road racing on TV, but when Nascar runs at Infineon or Watkins Glen, they put camera's on many of the driver's feet. It is really cool to see 2 feet dance all over 3 pedals, left foot braking, right foot braking, heel and toe braking, clutching, not clutching, etc. But when they upshift, they DO lift the throttle, but do NOT clutch.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

Any real life car that has a rev limiter will not be damaged by leaving the throttle to the floor when upshifting. Drag racers leave the hammer to the floor for the whole run and it has no ill effects.

You do realise that the drag car engines are rebuilt after just about every race, don't you?

Cheers,

Allan.

Quote from jtr99 :

In NR2003 of course, the engine damage model will quickly penalize you (with a blown engine or gear) for never lifting on upshift. Whereas in the current S2 alpha the engine damage modelling seems pretty generous and I get the impression you could shift at full-throttle all day without paying the price. (Not complaining about this and I realize that more accurate engine and gearbox damage simulation is almost certainly coming soon in LFS.)

If you're driving XRR in long races like in Endurance league (2 hours), you are surely slower in the end if you don't lift when shifting. In the first race at Westhill, my laptimes were 1 - 2 seconds lower during the last stint compared to the first stint, when I only flatshifted during the race.

I believe there are two types of rev limiter.

1st type is a fuel cut off , which stops the engine reving any further , but also causes the engine to run lean .This momentary lean condition has the potential of causing det = bang!

2nd type cuts the ignition which is much safer, not sure which type is used in game

Quote from mrodgers :

I think in real racing (I think, not know) that they do NOT flatshift, rather they shift without using the clutch.

Look here : http://www.750mc.co.uk/ and here http://www.monoposto.co.uk/

Mostly 1600 and 1800 CVH/Zetecs as well as Vauxhaul Lotus and Renault running on 4 speed Hewland boxes and intergrated racing clutches DO flatshift and DO NOT change clutchlessly (they can but it increases wear without a major advantage). Missing a gear is a big problem on the CVH as it always bends valves. All these cars will change flat but with clutch except the bike engines which have standard 6 speed sequential boxes.

Quote from Turbo Dad :

I believe there are two types of rev limiter.

1st type is a fuel cut off , which stops the engine reving any further , but also causes the engine to run lean .This momentary lean condition has the potential of causing det = bang!

2nd type cuts the ignition which is much safer, not sure which type is used in game

A third type, which applies to cars with fly-by-wire throttles, is the throttle limiter. The electronics stop more throttle being applied than the speed limit allows.

It is this type that LFS uses (I think).

in most racing cars flat shifting will cause damage to the engine and transmission due to the vastly increased shock loads caused by high revs and torque being suddenly re-applied to the road (it's not much good for tyres or grip either)

the whole shift simulation needs to be improves on the whole. with gearbox damage caused by over eager shifting, resulting in a loss of speed or more missed gears etc

clutch wear would be interesting too but i don't think it should wear unless you're really hammering it

Quote from Theafro :

in most racing cars flat shifting will cause damage to the engine and transmission

It depends what your talking about, important to differentiate between cars with production engines and gearboxes (most cars), those with production engines and full race boxes, straight cut gears intergrated full race clutch on production engines (FOX and maybe GTRs) and those on full race engines and boxes (FO8)

Read my first post, the cars I'm talking about are much like the FOX but with a 4 speed Hewland box, the motorbike engined cars (which have a six speed sequential box much like the FOX) flat shift as well (though I don't know what there clutch arrangement is). So I'm certain the FOX would be flat shifted in reality, not sure what system the F3000 uses but I'd have thought it would probably flat shift. I think all the other cars (including GTR) will not be able to flat shift.

Quote from ajp71 :

not sure what system the F3000 uses but I'd have thought it would probably flat shift. I think all the other cars (including GTR) will not be able to flat shift.

the fo8 and gtrs (the big gtrs not the fwd ones) are modled after race cars that use semi automatic boxes that shift very fast so the engine doest even have time to rev up during a flat shift abd the real life car probably eben use fly by wire throttle cut on upshifts by momentarily cutting ignition when the driver preses the button

yeah man, the reason you see a lot of this behavior IRL is the VAST amount of electronic gubbins those cars carry, to be fair LFS is rather missing some of the finer points changing gears, so we do have to treat things a little differently.

Tho' i'd quite like to see what happened to a GT car if you unchecked the 'rev cut on downshift' option in it's ECU, and started 'flat shifting' in it!

Maybe for the semi-automatic gearboxes there is a good deal of electronics, but certainly in smaller single seaters like the FOX can be changed flat on a 4 speed H shift, with absolutly no electronic gadgetry. No idea what modern Formula Renaults and F3 type single seaters do with there new 6 speed sequential boxes (how they've changed in 10 years )

So.. no one can tell for sure how does these GTR-s, Formula, and other race cars drive..
Till recently i drove LFS with lifting my foot for a bit, when upshifting, and auto clutch ON, but i couldn't do good times with that driving, so watching how other drivers drive, i started flat shifting, leaving the clutch auto ON.. so now i have 1.32.800 on BL with GTI..
BUT, if real drivers do not drive like that, and they DO lift off the throttle when up(down) shifting, then i would like to see damaged engine for flatshifting.. the more real the better.. For now.. i will continue to flatshif because others also drive like that..

Quote from Boris Lozac :

So.. no one can tell for sure how does these GTR-s, Formula, and other race cars drive..
Till recently i drove LFS with lifting my foot for a bit, when upshifting, and auto clutch ON, but i couldn't do good times with that driving, so watching how other drivers drive, i started flat shifting, leaving the clutch auto ON.. so now i have 1.32.800 on BL with GTI..
BUT, if real drivers do not drive like that, and they DO lift off the throttle when up(down) shifting, then i would like to see damaged engine for flatshifting.. the more real the better.. For now.. i will continue to flatshif because others also drive like that..

Boris, what everybody is trying to say is that it depends on the car IRL. Some race cars have standard H type transmissions with clutch, some have sequential with clutch, and some have sequential with all the gadgets to allow flat shifting with no clutch.
For a standard car like the GTi, flat shifting will cause damage eventually IRL. The clutch, the engine, engine mounts, transmission mounts, drive shaft and differentially will all get hammered over and over again causing damage. You will always lift and blip when shifting in these cars. The point is not necessarily the max RPM's you hit, but the rapid change in RPM's that happen during this manuever.
For some sequential boxes, you can upshift without using the clutch, and some you need to lift and some you don't. Sports cars with sequential systems usually require that you use the clutch for downshifting and that you match revs by blipping the throttle. However, if the rules allow, just about any pure race car can have systems that allow for flat, no clutch shifts using the different methods listed above.