It's been 2 years since the tire physics model has been getting worked on. For most players the current model is good enough, so why not just move on with the other features announced 2 years ago and save the new tire physics for S3?
Tire model good enough to just move on?
Alternate approach to car and tire model?
I doubt that any equation and/or table based approach is going to be able to simulate how a wide variety of cars and tires behave at the limits of traction. No matter how unpleasant it sounds, it seems that the equivalent of some canned effect is going to be needed to prevent cars from exhibiting unrealistic behavior when at the limits.
Taking a cue from the radio control model world, more and more computerized assists are being placed into model aircraft. Helicopters have had heading hold (these maintain orientation despite any side loads) gyros for yaw control for decades and more recently, pitch and roll have been added, which eliminates the need for mechanical fly-bars, making the helicopters more stable and at the same time more manuervable since the fly bar no longer limits roll and pitch response. Similarly model aircraft pilots are using heading hold gyros for yaw control during takeoffs to deal with issues like p factor and gyroscopic reaction from the prop during pitch changes on tail draggers.
Getting back to the tire model, a similar type of pitch, yaw, and roll feedback process in the car and tire physics model would solve some of the issues with unrealistic responses of a modeled car at the limits. Yeah it's a "canned" fix, but one that can be accomplished in a reasonable amount of time.
Taking a cue from the radio control model world, more and more computerized assists are being placed into model aircraft. Helicopters have had heading hold (these maintain orientation despite any side loads) gyros for yaw control for decades and more recently, pitch and roll have been added, which eliminates the need for mechanical fly-bars, making the helicopters more stable and at the same time more manuervable since the fly bar no longer limits roll and pitch response. Similarly model aircraft pilots are using heading hold gyros for yaw control during takeoffs to deal with issues like p factor and gyroscopic reaction from the prop during pitch changes on tail draggers.
Getting back to the tire model, a similar type of pitch, yaw, and roll feedback process in the car and tire physics model would solve some of the issues with unrealistic responses of a modeled car at the limits. Yeah it's a "canned" fix, but one that can be accomplished in a reasonable amount of time.
For some - including Scawen - it's not
kthxbye
You have to remember, this game is Scawen's baby, the only standards to which he caters are his own. And we don't get any new content until his standards are met. Think of it as "we're just along for the ride". Honestly, I hope it will stay this way. But I hope even more that we'll get SOMETHING new eventually.
Try to tell that to Scawen via e-mail. But anyways, do you think that when the new physics are in this far stage of development, Scawen would just delete the current tyre physics code and start from the beginning again with the new way? No, of course not.
It has never been the intention of LFS to have some hardcoded behaviour, and I doubt that it could be as realistic as what the devs are hopefully aiming for.
Just like the sound generation in this game is dynamic unlike most other games, so are the physics.
Just like the sound generation in this game is dynamic unlike most other games, so are the physics.
If you look at David Kaemmer's approach to things lately, you're getting the best of both worlds in iRacing's upcoming(tm) tire model. One of the big problems was that there was just not enough data available to base a physical model off of; but having rectified that by measuring his own, he provided himself with data that basically nobody else has (and manufacturer's don't really care about). If you watch the recent video interviews with him at the open house, it's clear that he's developed a physical model that follows his measured data (which goes far beyond the limit!) essentially perfectly which is a relative breakthrough in the tiny little sim development industry. If you haven't already you should have a look at them he has some interesting things to say.
Approaching things the way you describe seems rather arduous and probably more like starting over for no reason than moving forward imo.
If Scawen had access to the right data, this process probably would've been done near the beginning of LFS. I'd bet it's very very hard to find the information he needs specfically. It has nothing do with with the cars and everything to do with the tires; the rest is (by comparison) preschool physics.
Approaching things the way you describe seems rather arduous and probably more like starting over for no reason than moving forward imo.
If Scawen had access to the right data, this process probably would've been done near the beginning of LFS. I'd bet it's very very hard to find the information he needs specfically. It has nothing do with with the cars and everything to do with the tires; the rest is (by comparison) preschool physics.
Hey Jeff - Why did you have to create 2 related threads about identical topics within 30 minutes of each other?
Its a good question and I do think this will have been discussed by the devs.
Or maybe it simply evolves as things need work like it has, with no fixed targets for what should be included in S2.
My example Jeff is S1 as it currently stands.
When S1 was "Final" it was a very different version to what it is now.
Do you not see that S2 will be the same, when S3 is released and upgraded via whatever course of development Scawen Eric & Victor take?
Tyre physics are more important but I'm pretty sure that the rockingham track wouldnt change regardless..
mainly id rather get some more content than physics update.
Yeah - like the guy above just said - We all want bigger boobs instead of quality -_-
I keep saying it but there has to come a time when Scawen has to accept the tyre physics are an improvement and ready for release even if they arnt 100% to his liking. To get to that 100% it might take another 10 or 20 years which would be stupid. We have all only got ONE life. Surely he'd rather see people enjoying and paying for new updates and content than us lot whining year after year.
And we keep saying that convincing Scawen to do such evil is like stripping jesus and telling him to go rob a bank.
Not a chance m8 - wont happen - realistically - until the real deal is as close to perfect as Scawen wants.
Not a chance m8 - wont happen - realistically - until the real deal is as close to perfect as Scawen wants.
Yeah and I'm all for him getting close to perfect but if it meant almost perfect was able to be released in 6months and then totally perfect took another 40 years then theres got to come a time when he accepts it has to be released or we wouldn't even be playing lfs now if the current tyre model was that bad in his eyes as he would have never released it to the public.
+1
Get Gran Turismo 5. That's where the content is.
and not reply in either
Sorry for the late response, I rarely pay much attention to LFS forums anymore. My point wasn't to change the new physics model, but to add a sanity check for unrealistic behavior along any axis of rotation in the model. I wasn't proposing how the model should deal with the unrealistc behavior, just to have the data available as feedback.
...
The other side of this is how the model translates the simulated forces via Force feedback within the game, or is this your point?
Sorry to nag about reply just seemed a little odd you post two related subject matters that could (and now have) been condensed into a nice package.
The question(s) I have to ask is that.
A> Are you suggesting that applying a fixed gyroscopic force on the wheel as a means of measuring accuracy of the model currently in place?
Or
B> Suggesting this effect / measurement value is already in place and provides the Canned effect = ie translated via FF?
For myself the feedback LFS provides always tells the story of how the game is progressing. This a direct result of the Entire physics model not just tyres.
My point here
Focusing on just the tyres is important (for Scawen & this topic) But its the whole package that counts and this is the general vibe i get these days.
But Im distracting from the point you maybe trying to make Jeff.
So was it a or b or non of the above
@BBT
Scawen did mention building his own physical tyre measurement device somewhere in the jungle of a thread he made regarding VW & Tyres, but for life of me I cannot find it.
That's a "software tire tester" that he's had for years AFAIK. From what he's revealed in years past, it's a virtual machine that lets him test his formulae under sim conditions. Not to be confused with actually wrecking real tires on a real machine recording real values under a vast array of conditions.
Unless I missed something somewhere along the way, which is entirely possible.
Unless I missed something somewhere along the way, which is entirely possible.
I just wish I could find the posts covering this device.
Sorry about that link in my post, fixed now. But I am not sure how accurate the data is compared to the incarnation we have today.
I thought this was relevant material for the discussion regarding the proposed methods of combating the possible extremities that the current model delivers.
For the rumour mill it was around this time that rig of rods and chassis flex was picked up in the community also.
Anyway my dear Dr Watson's, I put the pipe down for now as I have one hell of a chesty cough, that is until something of interest pipes up.
Sorry about that link in my post, fixed now. But I am not sure how accurate the data is compared to the incarnation we have today.
I thought this was relevant material for the discussion regarding the proposed methods of combating the possible extremities that the current model delivers.
For the rumour mill it was around this time that rig of rods and chassis flex was picked up in the community also.
Anyway my dear Dr Watson's, I put the pipe down for now as I have one hell of a chesty cough, that is until something of interest pipes up.
This was based on a discussion with another person looking into vehicle simulation. Without getting into too much detail, this persons model is good enough to simulate complicated interactions like wheel hop from rear wheel tire spin, and the same changes made in the real world to fix the wheel hop issue also works in his simulation.
However, there are boundary conditions where the core model fails by exhibiting non-realistic behavior. It turned out that some of these issues couldn't be reasonably fixed by tweaking the core model, but instead required an alternate model when non-realistic behavior was detected. This is what I meant by the feedback and switching to a "canned effect" which is really just an alternate model to handle some boundary conditions.
Thanks for clarifying the terms. But I do wish you would go into detail 
Knowledge shared is knowledge gained, I have only my driving experience and a very loose grasp of reality. (If I spend to much time reading here)
This Canned effect you discussed regarding hopping of the tyres.
Obviously any hopping is a sign of traction issue or other maybe drive train issues, or suspension / rigidity and not ruling out driver error also.
So the canned effect you say applied real world fixes in certain conditions.
I have to ask which conditions and did a replicated physical model of the real world fix work in each scenario,for the non-realistic behaviour?
Sorry to be a pain, Just that these are quite interesting topic(s)
Knowledge shared is knowledge gained, I have only my driving experience and a very loose grasp of reality. (If I spend to much time reading here)
This Canned effect you discussed regarding hopping of the tyres.
Obviously any hopping is a sign of traction issue or other maybe drive train issues, or suspension / rigidity and not ruling out driver error also.
So the canned effect you say applied real world fixes in certain conditions.
I have to ask which conditions and did a replicated physical model of the real world fix work in each scenario,for the non-realistic behaviour?
Sorry to be a pain, Just that these are quite interesting topic(s)
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Alternate approach to car and tire model?
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