Christ Amp have a heart I respect you even though we don't agree on anything. I thank you for the grammar lesson but what I thought heard in your statement was how you personally feel about conservatives.
I DO understand, btw, the Western World (not just America) has screwed over the Middle East for a very long time. I have said that the US shouldnt be there, and should never have been there, but if even our left-wing president believes that there is something worth fighting for over there, then perhaps there is.

Shottie I was being a bit facetious. Reading that again I only said that to be politically incorrect. And to get you a little worked up.

Kev I know its not what you mean, but sometimes it sounds like you think the Jews are always in the wrong. They've been shuffled around and beaten since biblical times and now the Western world has turned on them yet again just for protecting themselves! When it comes down to it the arabs and jews will never coexist, and neither will ever win, so all they can do is protect themselves and live life as best as they can under the circumstances.

As for the media, unbiased reporting died with Walter Conkrite. Neither MSNBC or FOX are fair and balanced but they balance themselves out and thats why they are both important. I don't like that the left tries to throw it off with things like the "fairness" doctrine and organizations like Media Matters.

Quote from flymike91 :

Kev I know its not what you mean, but sometimes it sounds like you think the Jews are always in the wrong. They've been shuffled around and beaten since biblical times and now the Western world has turned on them yet again just for protecting themselves! When it comes down to it the arabs and jews will never coexist, and neither will ever win, so all they can do is protect themselves and live life as best as they can under the circumstances.

I don't blame "the Jews" for anything. They're just people. The state of Israel is a different kettle of fish entirely. Actually, as grim as it sounds, it's worth looking at how Rwanda is faring these days. Yes there was appalling atrocities and bloodshed as the state tried to balance its internal problems, but they seem to be resolved. Maybe ultimately Israel cannot exist in its current form, and any attempt to prolong the situation is a bad idea.

Similarly I don't have a problem with Muslims, or Americans (in fact I lived in the USA for a number of years and still have many firm friends on the east coast). I'm sure you can extrapolate my position from those statements.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Don't you think there could be a middle ground where powerful nations could use their power to right wrongs, rather than using it to advance their own agendas and make themselves richer?

It's not unlikely that Dubya really thought he was using his power to right wrongs. And it's fairly likely that most U.S. soldiers under G.W.'s command thought they were doing that. (And so did <that bloke that Godwin's Law is about>. He was righting wrongs by committing atrocities.)

Quote :

I know a lot of American soldiers are only in the forces because it's the only way they can afford a college education.

I pity the country where the only way to get ahead in the world is by being willing to kill other people.

Quote from wsinda :

It's not unlikely that Dubya really thought he was using his power to right wrongs.

He is a surprisingly stupid man, but I would imagine with his oil connections and the oil connections of most of his cabinet, he had a fairly good idea of why he was taking the nation to war. There's even a supertanker called Condoleezza Rice.

Meant to throw this into the kettle earlier... Always makes me chuckle. I can hear it in that 'You're watching FOX!' voice so clearly...

If Islam blatantly encourages to kill non-believers then there wouldn't be any Bahrain GP - no Malaysian GP.. wave goodbye to all tourist destinations that are in islamic countries or have larger enough muslim populations, as it simply wouldn't be safe for any non-believer, right?

If Islam did encourage to kill non-believers, then anyone could do so with clean and good conscience in any Muslim country without risking jail time. How many muslim countries are actually banned by the rest of the world because of this and how often are such killings occurring?

If muslims are supposed to hate non-believers this much, then why are so many living outside islamic countries - they aren't exactly doing the killings that many non-muslims claim Islam promotes - oh right, they are all lurking around for the big coup, to turn the country into an islamic one - by some magical way... I guess being idle can lead you somewhere.

Some years ago it was Counter-Strike and similar games that led some to become violent and even randomly kill people - or at least that's what some wanted us to believe. that was just a small thingy compared to religion.

Today a lot revolves around islam.. stuff happens, blame it on islam. Islam didn't appear yesterday, so why would muslims rise of off the sudden? Oh right.. I forgot again.. world wide coupe. The attention is changing politics. It makes it more serious but doesn't make the fear more true or valid. Politicians are people like the rest. If people in high places were that much better than the rest of us then we wouldn't have the financial crisis, would we?

Quran says "kill a non-believer" - but such examples are always used out of context - similarly, it's your right to defend yourself - but that doesn't mean you can wander around and randomly punch people of their faces, does it? a soldier can "kill and enemy", but that doesn't mean they can go on random killing spree because they felt everyone around them were enemies.

Lots of you are smart people but just need to see things a bit differently. A good start would be not to rely too much on one sided information.

And regarding the morons that blow up busses and whatnot - thats just what they are. If they happen to have a muslim background then that doesn't mean the bombing was religiously motivated.

Muslims are in the end people like the rest of the worlds population - some are ****-ups and some are just trying to live their life quiet and easy.

Edit: Jihad, as MAGGOT correctly points out, means struggle and has nothing to do with killing - how could anyone kill in the name of the religion when the person him/herself has personal issues? Personal jihad/struggle is the first obstacle any muslim must overcome - and as some of you may be able to tell, it's freking difficult to come clean with yourself.

We, in the western world, have had Jihad associated with killings and terror though movies and news for at least 20 years - that's what I remember from own ersonal experience... all those old action flicks with sterotypical arabs wanting to have some super duper guy relied from jail.. or else..! etc kind of stuff.

No wonder Islam and terror goes hand in hand in the minds of many people.

I'd have to agree, religion is the radical muslim's smokescreen for solely political acts of violence like suicide bombings and such. Hiding behind their religion makes it easier for them to escape prosecution and deportation especially in places like the UK where it is so politically incorrect to tell them they're doing anything wrong because as a minority "asylum seeker" they can do no wrong.

THEY ARE WATCHING US.

THEY ARE TRACING YOUR IP AND STEALING UR INTERNETZ AND BOMBING UR HOUSE.

:hide:

Quote from DevilDare :

Well... Quran states quite a few times actually to kill those who do not accept or believe in Allah... Yeah...

I am sure there is something similar for other religions as well.

Don't take it out of context. Found these somewhere, found it quite interesting. If you look at what comes before and after the lines in the Quran that say to kill the none believers, you'll realise that it says that you may if they attack you only and that Allah does not allow you to be the aggressor.

Some quotes :

[2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.

[2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.

[2:192] If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful

Quote from r4ptor :

Muslims are in the end people like the rest of the worlds population - some are ****-ups and some are just trying to live their life quiet and easy.

As Woody Allen said, religion is just a club. It enforces barriers between people to greater or lesser degrees. As an Australian non-Jew, I was never accepted by my Jewish girlfriends family, for example. My current partners grandparents are Muslim, and initially they were terrified their granddaughter was dating a 'Christian', even though I have nothing to do with Christianity. Once I'd actually met them and gotten to know them, and they me- the terror subsided and now everything is fine between us.

There are just occasionally people around who will take to explosives and blowing themselves and other people up for a cause. This is in no way limited to Arabic cultures and beliefs. There was a guy in the USA just a few months ago who strapped on explosives and took a group of people hostage, because he was concerned about saving frogs...

Quote from MAGGOT :

No it doesn't. Jihad means "struggle," and is most often used in the context of personal struggles of faith. In extreme cases in the scriptures, it references wars in defense of the religion, to protect it from persecution and extinction. In its original message/meaning, it has nothing to do with crusading or offensive action, and certainly does not mandate the killing of those of other faiths.

Well, Kampf is struggle in German, hmm, and we all know what we think of when we hear that word. Ironic I find..

Quote from BlueFlame :

Well, Kampf is struggle in German, hmm, and we all know what we think of when we hear that word. Ironic I find..

thats doubly stupid

Quote from Shotglass :

thats doubly stupid

Well in the same way Muslim extremeists want to banish the world of anyone but people with their beliefs, I find it ironic that the Nazi leader used an equivilant of the word Jihad in his personal pre-war memoirs.

As much as you'd like to be a language expert, "Kampf" means something along the lines of "fight" (in relation to war), and not struggle, so it makes perfect sense to use that word.

Quote from BlueFlame :

Well in the same way Muslim extremeists want to banish the world of anyone but people with their beliefs, I find it ironic that the Nazi leader used an equivilant of the word Jihad in his personal pre-war memoirs.

Here's another parallel; both of them have manipulated hundreds of thousands, if not millions, into believing their BS justified by twisted ideals. The Nazi party, before Hitler, was not a fear-mongering entity (maybe slightly elitist, but not fear-mongering) as far as I know. Not to mention the swastika was not an 'evil' sign before Hitler, either. Kind of in the same way that Islam is not a hate-fueled religion and Jihads are not about justifying aggression and killing of "non-believers." Don't make the mistake of thinking that these parties/religions are bad or evil because of what some people have done with them, because what has been done in their name had nothing really to do what with they were about at their core.

Quote from jibber :

As much as you'd like to be a language expert, "Kampf" means something along the lines of "fight" (in relation to war), and not struggle, so it makes perfect sense to use that word.

that (alternatively i can also mean fight as in boxing or some other martial art)
and based on that bit of stupid any associations you have with the word are therefore equally stupid
also i rather doubt that youve actually read mein kampf... not that i have but im not going around proclaiming falsehoods about my first language

Quote from jibber :

As much as you'd like to be a language expert, "Kampf" means something along the lines of "fight" (in relation to war), and not struggle, so it makes perfect sense to use that word.

You are correct, but Jihad is the exact replica of the word Kampf, a fight, maybe against poverty or a bigger ideal is still classed as a 'struggle' in English.

Shotglass are you saying that you doubt I'VE never read Mein Kampf?

turn that into a proper question please the double negative makes it more than ambiguous

Quote from Shotglass :

turn that into a proper question please the double negative makes it more than ambiguous

Your synicism is amusing, but since you knew what I meant, rather than dragging a small error out as a huge mistake, you could have just answered the question, but since you aren't prepared to do that, I will answer it for you. It's on my book shelf I've read it more than once.

I would have hoped for a much more valuable contribution coming from someone purportedly in Palestine.

Quote from BlueFlame :

synicism

cynicism?

Quote :

but since you knew what I meant, rather than dragging a small error out as a huge mistake, you could have just answered the question

no i actually didnt since in german a double negative doesnt really exist at all and is massively confusing... unlearning that has thus far proven difficult

Quote :

It's on my book shelf I've read it more than once.

might posibly explain a lot

Can we invoke godwins law here and end the argument?

yea sure I like the one about education reform anyway