Quote from Scawen :

It's quite strange that some people think we are hiding something, not telling the truth and so on. Our biggest mistake seems to have been, ever announcing anything we planned to work on or release. Because those are the things that are held against us most often.

Scawen,
your biggest mistake - and you know that very well - isn't your announcement of new features or content, it's most probably your perfectionism.
Whole games, some of which have been fairly successful worldwide, were developed in less than two years. You guys have not given LFS serious UPDATES in more than two years.
Of course, LFS isn't your average game and you guys aren't average developers. Your team is veeeery small, so naturally your development cycles are longer. Plus, you're not depending on the services of any publishing company either, so that makes you independent from any commitments (except for the money you need for living).
Thing is, people are used to getting updates and content upgrades for games in months rather than years. You have not been able to believably communicate the obviously huge efforts you're putting in to further enhance LFS with new content and features. So people are wondering if you're really concentrating on LFS at all, if you've lost the love for it or have moved on to something else. You can't really blame them for it. They're used to getting fed more information than you're giving them, and more things to play with.
Another problem I'm seeing is that a physics upgrade, some new track and one new car won't be the "BIG ONE" upgrade everybody is hoping for, after more than two years of development. Of course most people don't know what's going on under the hood. So the things you're working on actually might technically be a major leap forward, but don't feel like that, because the difference pre and after can't be recognized by the average player.
I can imagine it is a frustrating experience dealing with a rather impatient crowd of players, but maybe you could satisfy many hungry minds with smaller more frequent updates. I've even heard that just giving people a minor new version with very few changes (if any at all!) does have some kind of placebo effect - they're feeling there's something done about the game so they're satisfied and stick with LFS. A new tire rim design here, a small dashboard update there, things that don't take months to complete but still have the desired effect of keeping players interested.
Anyway. I've been stuck with LFS almost since its inception, I'm not gonna go away (also thanks to CityLifeCrew.net). I'm not particularly interested in the Scirocco, but I am looking forward to the enhanced physics model around tires. Even if it's not PERFECT (hint, hint).
So keep it up: LFS is - arguably - one of the best things you've done in your life so far, making thousands of people happy every day.
Cheers
Gooney

Quote from scipy :

You've also said you wouldn't stand in the way of progress if other devs had new content to release, right? So, since really 99 % of this whining is about CONTENT and not tire physics, why isn't Eric releasing imaginary cars and tracks left and right? Without even breaking a sweat it could be 2 tracks and 3 cars every 6 months (this is taking into consideration the "complicated editors" you wrote for him). I mean really, people are importing models from 3ds max into LFS already, why not just let Eric work in something like 3ds max and write a plugin instead?

Give us content, tire physics is already better than anything else out there.

100% agreement

Quote from scipy :

You've also said you wouldn't stand in the way of progress if other devs had new content to release, right? So, since really 99 % of this whining is about CONTENT and not tire physics, why isn't Eric releasing imaginary cars and tracks left and right? Without even breaking a sweat it could be 2 tracks and 3 cars every 6 months (this is taking into consideration the "complicated editors" you wrote for him). I mean really, people are importing models from 3ds max into LFS already, why not just let Eric work in something like 3ds max and write a plugin instead?

Give us content, tire physics is already better than anything else out there.

I think they are waiting the physics to be done, to release the content with the physics in the s3 version.

Quote from gooney :

Scawen,
your biggest mistake - and you know that very well - isn't your announcement of new features or content, it's most probably your perfectionism.

Without his perfecionism LFS would probably be a piece of shit that nobody would even care about

Quote from BOSCHO :

I think they are waiting the physics to be done, to release the content with the physics in the s3 version.

Yes, but the westhill and the cockpit updates? That's S2 content

Quote from scipy :

Give us content, tire physics is already better than anything else out there.

Fully agree.

no one is waiting for it, if we got some Tracks lfs will be rushed with new Players. Developing the Tyre Physics can be handle in the meanwhile and releasing it later will be ok. The Community is going passiv, reading comments and waiting for new Conntent or anything new in LFS. So LFS is the best exp. of a Racing Simulation!!

Scawen, let some members developing tracks and get the finished work so u can decide to release it or not. Eric said that he will work on his own speed and i think that it wont be the greatest motivation for waiting for new Content when we must wait for erics work..

...most of us understand your point.

Between the abusive venom spat out by the likes of Guercio and the live-in-the-clounds blind optimism of many, something has been lost.

You're a developer, so am I (have been for many, many years).

Aside from my professional life, I have dealt with simulation physics (developer too) for commercial grade combat flight sims and have been involved with modding for racing sims.

Having a degree in Theoretical Physics, having read my heavy share of SAE papers, books et al, I really understand how hard it is to develop tire/chassis/aero physics. It takes time - particularly when the team involved is very small. Particularly when the most complex aspects of these models physics falls on the shoulders of one person alone (correct me if this is not so).

However...

I believe you are aware of the real issue, here: it's not that your team is lying or being dishonest, no. No.

It's rather the perceived (should I say obvious) lack of ability to effectively communicate with the community around a product YOU SELL/SOLD.

I have been following your project and this community for many years. Clearly, the credit given to the team behind LFS has been eroded, slowly but surely.

This goes beyond perfectionism - it bears on the ability to understand what people (we, the people, no pun intended, those that purchased LFS) expect from you and LFS.

In the real world, Area Managers, Division Managers, etc, demand from me and my co-workers, not only quality, dedication, but also deadlines.

In the era of MS project and the likes, we ALL know about deadlines and milestones. We cannot run away from them. They're imposed on us, and we are expected to deliver. Period.

Give us deadlines. And respect them.

Word of advice: do remember that ISI is releasing a new product, do remember that SIMBIN has suffered internal changes and is releasing a new product, do remember that netKar Pro is gathering a bit momentum, do remember that X-Motor Racing also has an interesting package, do remember that iRacing (with a heavy discount on hype) is here to stay.

Communicate better, dare give this community a few deadlines or dates for milestones, and I assure you that you can be "Perfectionism ad-infinitum" and still have more than a few thousand loyal followers - I'll be one of them.

Take care.

Miguel
PS: thus far, physics and graphics wise, your team has done a job to be proud of.

Quote from Amynue :

Without his perfecionism LFS would probably be a piece of shit that nobody would even care about

I have a feeling you didn't really understand what I was trying to say in my post. There are degrees of perfectionism. My point is that working on a physics model for years might mean somewhat overshooting the target. Of course LFS is what it is due to meticulous research and great skill the devs have shown. Nevertheless there's a point where the end doesn't justify the means, and I think we're already beyond that point.

Quote from Dennis93 :

I hope you get banned for a year.

one vote for you.
you haven't got reason jassonmathew have the reason

scawen you must to launch a small pach please, people have angry and tyred to lfs

we want new engines sounds new gtr interiors, better graffics, this is easy for you and will be a big motivation for us

Quote from Scawen :

I keep wanting to post, but can't think of anything new to say. Our reasons for working the way we do are well documented, and understood by many people, some of who have posted on this thread.

It's quite strange that some people think we are hiding something, not telling the truth and so on. Our biggest mistake seems to have been, ever announcing anything we planned to work on or release. Because those are the things that are held against us most often.

I've tried to explain the complication of developing a tyre model but really you won't get it from my few words, you'd have to try yourself to see all the issues that come up.

Anyway I know there is a lot of support out there as well, which was quite evident in the first few pages. People who do believe that we are working on things to improve LFS and that these things are not easy. For them and us, we are continuing to work on things that will make LFS a better driving experience.

Sorry about announcing things we were planning to do in the past, raising expectations and so on, either by our own fault or when things were announced beyond our control. It's a pity that difficult things can't always be done at high speed, so that previous announcements wouldn't be an issue.

i think i have to agree with boothy here...

Quote from boothy :

Well the Scirocco and Rockingham were not announced by yourselves, they were found by people and then you came clean on the forum - you can probably see why people would think you are hiding something.

okay, fine. so you created stuff behind our back. what bugged me about it was that it was in the semi-public (ie: at the real track, and at the games convention)... and then when you did decide to announce it, you quickly pulled it away for further updates... it was kind-of a double whammy or sorts.

i understand that making software can take a lot of time, and that you guys want to do things your way, but i also want to reiterate how you conveyed that message... comments like "go play something else", or "create your own game", or "i don't justify the pace i work at", etc, probably isn't the best way to ask for patience.

i know you probably don't care, but i have money saved up for a new gaming pc that might end up going towards a console if i have to wait much longer... i can't justify paying for some NR2003 hackjob. (not that GT5 isn't a hackjob either, and FM4 is probably a while away.) or i may sell my racing rig altogether and find a new genre of gaming as you've so colloquially suggested.

i know you're trying to do your best to to provide us with something that you're happy with, but you have to realize that we saw new stuff and know that lfs is capable of much more, so hopefully you can understand why some people are upset.

now, i'm not saying you should give us weekly/monthly/quarterly statements, but the "no news is good news" mentality doesn't bode well with some people. i'm glad that you're trying to meet a middle-ground, at least.

Quote from Scawen :

Anyway, it's a new year and I'm back on those tyres trying to get it right and then into LFS, looking forward to some good results that make the cars feel good and stand up reasonably well to some scrutiny by our knowledgable community members.

please do. hopefully by then we'll still have some leagues and experienced drivers.

Quote from OldBloke :

2010 was a tough year for my gaming community's LFS section. There were two occasions where numbers had dropped so significantly that we seriously considered pulling the plug and taking our server off the grid. A very small number of our racers saved the situation by seeding the server as often as possible, trying to attract drop-in guests and, hopefully, see them return again. There were, however, many nights where a 3 car race was the only show in town.

I mention this because I can't believe we are the only server provider to have faced these problems. Without servers, there is no LFS. The decision taken by the devs to cease the drip feed of new content (that we had all been used to seeing) caused, IMHO, numbers to decline. Scawen telling people to 'play something else' wasn't exactly a great help to us either.

2011 is probably going to be tougher than 2010 for the server providers. I don't have a crystal ball but the so-called 'progress report' didn't inspire me with confidence that new content is imminent so my guess is that we will all be playing the same hand we played in 2010 for much if not all of this year.

So here's the thing ...

However you feel about the state of LFS development expressing your view on these forums one way or the other will not make any difference. However, regularly jumping on a server and enjoying the experience will. The people who spend the time and money to provide the community with somewhere to race/drift need your support now more than at any time in the past. If and when S3 is released it would be good to know that there are still servers out there to actually run it on.

I know how you feel and i'm sure Jason does too.
Dennis93, untill you yourself have tried to run a server and invested as much time and effort as Jason and OldBloke over the many years, i think it would be better not to comment.

Theres some good quality posts on the last couple of pages, no doubt though he's going to dodge all the questions we want an answer to. Even a yes, no, maybe, would be nice.

I like where this thread has gone.

I practically bow down to goony and Miguel here...everything they said has been so true and exactly what I am feeling, but put much more pleasantly than "work on the damn game you ****" which is what I would have probably said.

Quote from MiguelMargarido :

Give us deadlines. And respect them.

Have you considered LFS may have been created because the developers didn't like this method of work? Everyone is different and has their own preferences. Some people dislike having hard deadlines, and being put under pressure, hence why they start their own projects instead. I don't know if this is how LFS was created however.

Giving the community deadlines would only serve to create more pointless hostility anyway.

I am not sure why anyone is lecturing the developers on their work methods. Would I do a simulation differently if I had the skills?? Probably, but I wouldn't come on here lecturing them about how they should change (I do admit I have done in the past, but I think we're over that phase)

Now I happen to think LFS is a sensational simulation, and I actually commend anyone to take on their own project away from the orthodox and strict methods imposed on them in the 'real world'. If I want a sim like iRacing, I'll play iRacing. If I want a sim like NetKar, I'll play NetKar. These sims are out there already. LFS is a bit different, but that's a valuable USP in my eyes. The developers appear to put quality of content above anything else, at all costs (this thread shows the cost is quite high). I like that. You know when something is released the heart and soul of Scawan is there. That's a personal touch you rarely get with other sims. I know one thing. I have 1000000% got my money's worth. This is why I am here supporting Scawan and co.

Quote from MiguelMargarido :

In the era of MS project and the likes, we ALL know about deadlines and milestones. We cannot run away from them. They're imposed on us, and we are expected to deliver. Period.

Give us deadlines. And respect them.

Game development is completely different from applications development, especially with teams as small as the LFs dev team. The closest thing to a deadline you'd find in a game development schedule is rough timeline of projected product releases. "When it's done" is the norm.

To me, this is just another way to rationalize the "I'm pissed and I deserve more stuff for my buck" mentality. You paid for a game and got plenty of mileage out of it. You didn't pay for a protracted development schedule (with dealines!!!111!) and future updates.

All I know is that I would gladly pay a full S2 license price for a "content package", say 3-4 tracks (with lots of variations) and 2-3 new cars.
And that's with our current tyre model/physics engine.

GLADLY.


As scipy said, LFS is still amazing, just desperately needs new/more content.
Above all, seriously.

Unfortunately there's no content to pay for with my money.
How badly I wish there was.

Quote from OldBloke :

2010 was a tough year for my gaming community's LFS section. There were two occasions where numbers had dropped so significantly that we seriously considered pulling the plug and taking our server off the grid. A very small number of our racers saved the situation by seeding the server as often as possible, trying to attract drop-in guests and, hopefully, see them return again. There were, however, many nights where a 3 car race was the only show in town.

I mention this because I can't believe we are the only server provider to have faced these problems. Without servers, there is no LFS. The decision taken by the devs to cease the drip feed of new content (that we had all been used to seeing) caused, IMHO, numbers to decline. Scawen telling people to 'play something else' wasn't exactly a great help to us either.

2011 is probably going to be tougher than 2010 for the server providers. I don't have a crystal ball but the so-called 'progress report' didn't inspire me with confidence that new content is imminent so my guess is that we will all be playing the same hand we played in 2010 for much if not all of this year.

My friend we were screaming about this late 2008, but told to shut up. Labelled as pessimists and moaners, I tired of paying considerable money for local hosting and seeing 'F' all from the devs to correct the content situation.

It's inevitable. The decline was first outside the EU and now spread to the home of LFS.

I'd like to think another patch will save LFS, but unless it's something special, no one with an ounce of common sense is going to invest the time or the money to provide the community with quality servers/comps.

Quote :

So here's the thing ...

However you feel about the state of LFS development expressing your view on these forums one way or the other will not make any difference. However, regularly jumping on a server and enjoying the experience will. The people who spend the time and money to provide the community with somewhere to race/drift need your support now more than at any time in the past. If and when S3 is released it would be good to know that there are still servers out there to actually run it on.

Nothing will change unless the devs take action.

Wow... I've been visiting the forums for almost 8 years now and this is my spectacular post number 5! It seems to be against the prevailing mood of the thread, but so be it...

Seriously, what is up with the perspective of the people around here?

I can understand liking a game and wishing that there was more paid content available for it, but everyone here appears to think that the developers somehow owe them free updates for life? In a way it's probably an unwanted side-effect of the way that they've chosen to release the game (i.e. making every engine update free for the last 8 years, and only charging occasionally for content).

In any case, Scawen, please add me to the list of people who will continue to wait patiently and will definitely be purchasing S3 no matter what... whenever it becomes available.

The few LFS players left aren't expecting free content or other updates.

Quote from Scawen :

It's quite strange that some people think we are hiding something, not telling the truth and so on.

To be frank, while the mystery surrounding lack of content is left unanswered, questions of truth, honesty and so on will keep perpetuating.

To date the topic of content has largely been avoided and skirted around with vague details, which sound more like excuses to cover up the true situation, be it bad or good. I know that sounds harsh, but Eric's contempt for the community and continue silence breeds mistrust, which really tarnishes Scawen and Victors contributions.

It's truly astounding that not a single screenshot has been presented to show progress apparently made with content, yet we're expected to simply believe it has or is happening.

The devs need to consider their future prospects, in respect to LFS and they need to instil some serious faith in the community. At the moment it sounds like the typical "the dog ate my homework" excuse.

Macfox, is right, I have been also screaming about this since 2008

Its not the fact we expect free updates, however we want progress

I would happily pay 15 pounds for 3 or 4 new cars, and 3 or 4 tracks with current physics.

Australia has died so bad, only 1 or 2 servers have ppl in them, and now Europe has as well, I warned you all about this years ago as well, again I was a "troll" because I didn't love the game. Well I loved it so much I was willing to be negative to get some change. I hope the devs finally listen, as the last few pages really reflect the feeling of the community.

They don't have long B4 we all give up, and just stop playing and visiting.

OK, thanks for the comments.

I think that nearly all possible points have been made now (from the community's side).

I'm sure it would have been different if we had known in advance how long this development stage would take, I guess we could have tried to plan other releases in the meantime. But it has always seemed like I was near to finishing the tyre physics, so no change of plan was required.

Remember it was the Scirocco that showed up the issues in the tyre physics (there were already known tyre physics issues but we couldn't get the Scirocco to drive as safely as a real one does while restricting ourselves to a realistic setup). So, releasing the Scirocco has been out of the question until the tyre physics system is quite close to reality.

Releasing Rockingham has also been out of the question. We want to release a real track when the behaviour of the cars is right (not perfect, just close enough so the bumps feel right and the lap times are just like real ones).

Who knows, if I had known in advance that the tyre model would take so long, maybe Eric would have thought that he should focus on some S1 / S2 content updates. With the benefit of hindsight, it's easy to pick holes in what we have done and point out the mistakes we have made. But as I said, we always thought that in a few weeks or a couple of months, the new tyres would be ready to roll.

But the carcass simulation, which I had to look into because the tread simulation model clearly ignored too much of how a tyre actually behaves, took me in a whole new direction for a good part of last year. A long time of studying and finding out a lot more about tyres than I knew before, and had never thought I'd need to know. It made my head spin quite often, I'm not an eighteen year old on a university course. I couldn't even read this stuff for full eight hour days, had to take it a bit easy at times.

But still I usually thought I was near the end. So that is probably the reason for our dreadful "strategy" and lack of communication. It wasn't a strategy at all, and I didn't want to communicate until I got solid results.

I am fully aware that this post isn't going to convince many people. But I thought I'd write it anyway, to help you see slightly more from my point of view.

I will unsubscribe from this thread now, which I followed up to this point. But it's a bit too distracting to receive the email notifications and too tempting to come in here and read the latest posts, which takes me away from research and development.

A good post.

I will not tell you what to do or anything, but do you belive we'll see a patch in 2011?

Again, we know you canot promiss anything due to the trail and error prossess that is now, researching on the tyre physics, but if you would give an wild guess...2011 is it?

The 'rocco and Rocki' aside, does this mean we'll see nothing from Eric this year at all

Quote from The Very End :

but if you would give an wild guess...2011 is it?

is it?