So let's get this settled, shall we ?

These first three sessions have been atrocious - there's usually some improvement, but I haven't felt or seen it yet. Yes, I know lag has been a problem recently, but surely logic dictates that if there's lag you avoid being too close for more than you need to be. And surely you should know anyway to give room for other cars so you don't risk a major prang.

I need to be told why I should be bothered to run this event, if YOUR attitudes, as racers, does not or will not improve.

Why should I waste my time watching 30 cars circle about behind a yellow FZ5, why should you? Why should I waste my time to organize this when racers don't show the needed patience.

How can I know that you'll give me a good race on the 26th March if you can't show me that you can race well on these practice races?

I'm not happy, I hope you're not happy - how about the racing shapes up or I just shitcan the event this year?

I sincerely hope that you racers don't expect us admins to spend time micro-analyzing the sessions to see what people did wrong - it shouldn't be our jobs. It's up to you, the racers to tell us what you are and aren't happy with.

I've started this thread to be the place where you can complain about driving standards if it's not protest-worthy. I encourage you to comment here, pointing out what the bad actions you observed were, but please, do not attack who did it. You can mention who did it, but criticize the action and NOT the driver him/herself. Any post that contains an attack or similar type of criticism of the driver him/herself will result in that entire post being deleted.

But for now, I'm not happy with how things have been so far - I'm simply going to cancel this race if you can't show me that you can stop this race being a carbon copy of last year's "race".

While it is helpful to look at other's driving standards, perhaps the first place to look is one's own wrecks, and see if you could do anything to avoid it. Sometimes it's not enough not to try to get into a wreck, but to actively try to avoid wrecking, especially in the early laps and right after restarts. There have been lots of times where we've not even gotten through turn one.
In my case I have 3 wrecks that I could have avoided. Most notably in the last practice, I wrecked into Arox by not realizing he was fully beside me, I thought it was a block, but I clearly wrecked him(last kink, last lap). I've had one other last lap wreck (trying too hard), and another crash involving K o'K in turn 3 where he passed 4 cars, but had to check up on exit, I was pretty slow to try to slow down.
I know what I'd do differently in all these cases now.
As for complaints about others, well, the driving under safety car is almost as dangerousas as racing. Lots of drivers seem not to know tire warming on the last pace lap isn't allowed, and that until the last pace lap cars don't need to be right on top of the car ahead. Pit entry procedures seem to be poorly understood.
There have been times when I've been happy with those around me. There have been a number of times when I've gone into turn 3 3 wide and we all made it through.
Anyway, I know I haven't been perfectly clean, but I do know what I'll do differently, and I've learned that by looking at my own driving first.

JB

IMO, people are pushing it to much...making it 3 - 4 wide in some places. Most people are just pushing to early and causing wrecks which is quite dumb... dont push until the last few laps and the race will be fine. Patience is the key to winning. So if everyone would just chill out for the 1st 35 laps of the practice sessions... and let things spread out there would be no cautions.

Quote from JayEyeBee :

While it is helpful to look at other's driving standards, perhaps the first place to look is one's own wrecks, and see if you could do anything to avoid it. Sometimes it's not enough not to try to get into a wreck, but to actively try to avoid wrecking, especially in the early laps and right after restarts. There have been lots of times where we've not even gotten through turn one.
In my case I have 3 wrecks that I could have avoided. Most notably in the last practice, I wrecked into Arox by not realizing he was fully beside me, I thought it was a block, but I clearly wrecked him(last kink, last lap). I've had one other last lap wreck (trying too hard), and another crash involving K o'K in turn 3 where he passed 4 cars, but had to check up on exit, I was pretty slow to try to slow down.
I know what I'd do differently in all these cases now.
As for complaints about others, well, the driving under safety car is almost as dangerousas as racing. Lots of drivers seem not to know tire warming on the last pace lap isn't allowed, and that until the last pace lap cars don't need to be right on top of the car ahead. Pit entry procedures seem to be poorly understood.
There have been times when I've been happy with those around me. There have been a number of times when I've gone into turn 3 3 wide and we all made it through.
Anyway, I know I haven't been perfectly clean, but I do know what I'll do differently, and I've learned that by looking at my own driving first.

JB

Words of wisdom.

I've personally been involved in at least three major incidents that could have clearly been avoided.

First was in practice n°2. Arox had a huge crash with someone else at the exit of T1. I thought that lifting and going to the right slightly would be enough to avoid the rolling car of Arox. But I miscalculated his momentum, and in the end his car touched the rear right of mine, just enough to make it end on its roof. I know it's not an excuse, but it was around 2am here, I was needing sleep, and therefore my lucidity/reaction time wasn't excellent. I belive I would've avoided everything if the session was on EU afternoon/evening.

Second one was before the start of practice n°3. Extremely stupid one I must say. It was in the first formation lap. I was hanging on TS and wasn't paying so much attention of what was going on track. I didn't notice the whole field was in double file(!) and ended up turning into Cornys who was getting alongside me at T3, while I was warming tyres.

Third one was at the middle of practice n°3. I belive most drivers would just forget about it since it didn't bring any caution and is what you usually call a racing incident, but I prefer to mention it since it could've ended badly. I got slightly loose at the exit of T1 for some reason, and got to the left line while taking back control to the car. I didn't notice Oscar was getting alongside me already, we tangled, sending us sideways through the field at T2. Fortunately everyone managed to avoid us.

I agree with JayEyeBee in general anyway, some racers are just too agressive by nature(or maybe do not realise the potential risks of their actions). A good part of them keep fighting for position all the way through the race, like if there endlessly was 3 laps to go, instead of trying to collaborate with others, in order to reduce the time loss on the leading pack. This is not only very counterproductive, but also often ends up in crazy situations in T3. I usually lift off in this kind of situation, and I'm always amazed by the fact that some will try to pass me nevertheless, despite not having any significant overlap. I belive this kind of people would react differently if there was no cautions and if any spin meant the end of their chances for a good result. Clearly a problem of mentality, they will keep on trying making stupid moves just because they know that even it fails, the worst thing that can happen to them is losing a few places and dropping at the back, unless they roll or get a badly damaged car(which isn't so much likely in most situations).

One of the reason why there's been no significant progress (IMO, of course) is that there's been no regular sessions yet. We've had 3 sessions only so far, 2 for EUs and 1 for US people. It seems like a large part of us have only made 1 so far. Now I of course understand that you admins have more important/interresting things to do, and therefore can't manage to do 1 session every night or so. I don't know how the session schedule is going to be, but I belive we will be able to judge progresses more accurately once we'll be a few more sessions old.

Although it'll be a highly unpopular idea, banning the bumpdrafting could surely clean it up.
Some people simply can't take or give a constant push, be it lag or experience.
I had no problem getting to the front in my last session simply because several cars were attempting to bump, would gain a little then lose a ton due to nearly crashing from lag taps.
Was able to pass Simon and Joe on the outside of T1 because they slowed from bump lag.
Was also able to pull away from Yann and Ramon because they were having issues while bumping.

Trust me I know how important it usually is to have someone pushing you to the front, but the current conditions don't allow it. And yes you can get there without it.

If the practices don't get better, I surely am not going to waste my time.....

There isn't much time to do more sessions... which is part of the problem, we have not been able to whittle out the moronic drivers like we usually try to do. With deko working it was supposed to be down to me to do the vast majority of the sessions, but this has proved not to be workable for me at all as I have not been able to make one session yet, and have had no real time to do any others up until this point. We shall see what comes of this.

Weeding out the stupid drivers will come during the duel(heat) races, as we have more than 30 people and you will have to race your way in.

Banning bumpdrafting is a 'crude' solution, as we really just need to get people to understand WHEN to bumpdraft. The first 100 laps of the 140 lap race for example shouldn't have much bumpdrafting at all. The last 10 laps however is bumpdraft heaven. People are just being too aggressive, just like last year's race. I was patient in last year's race and everyone basically took each other around me, allowing me to easily win. I don't want that again this year, I want to actually race people to the finish. Things I have noticed most that needs fixing:

1. Tire warming: Stop being so aggressive. Sure its nice to have warm tires, but you have to nearly spin and risk yours and others race. Also, once that "Safety car in this lap" message comes up, you need to stop, seriously. If not I hope you get put to the end of the line during the real race.

2. Restarts: This one bugs me the most. YOU. DO. NOT. NEED. TO. BE. SO. AGGRESSIVE. EVERY. RESTART. You guys ever heard of a single file restart? Don't lay back and try to time it. Don't spread out and get beside of the car ahead right before the line, just wait. Pick each driver off one at a time, it really is that easy.

3. "You don't win the race on the first lap". This applies to oval racing as well, but can also be expanded to "You don't win the race in the first 90% of the race". You guys really bug me with 3-4 wide on the first 75-90% of the race. There is absolutely no need for it. Last 10 laps? Sure, duke it out as crazy as you want, but if you crash it is all on you.

4. Bumpdrafting. Oh how it can make you fail so bad. Don't bumpdraft in traffic. Don't bumpdraft in the corner (unless completely alone). Don't bumpdraft unless you are familiar with that person and you both are trying to catch someone (or extend your lead). Practice session #3 I was able to actually pull a gap on the rest of the field by doing laps completely on my own. The two cars in 2nd and 3rd were trying to bumpdraft but made mistakes setting them farther back each time. It's not always successful, so only use it when you absolutely need to.


How do you fix all of these "problems"?
1. Use your mirrors just as much as you use your front windshield.
2. Use your brain when choosing decisions (passing/bumpdrafting/traffic).
3. Read the rules.
4.
5. Profit.

great words right there Phil .
any chance at finding out when and if our practice sessions have counted yet?

Yep, good post.

Great words of wisdom from 2 times winner.

On your bumpdrafting coment about it can also cost you time. I can back that up too. In practice race 3, I was on my own chasing down I think it was Cattell and a teammate were trying who were trying to bump draft. they pulled away slightly down the straights but i would pull it back and a bit more everytime in each corner.

Im not a fast driver but I can lap consistantly and Lets face it, if you cant bump draft away from ME its deffinately not wise to keep trying to every lap.

Phil knows.

All should listen.

dont blame deko , he couldnt control ellis
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I'm not saying bumpdrafting isn't the quickest way. Even under these "server conditions" we were still able to run 47.6s and 47.7s with consistent bumpdrafting on quite warm tires. So with good tires at the end of the race you can still do 47.5s. But like I said, END OF THE RACE. The bumpdrafting that is happening is at the beginning of the race when the tires are fresh and greasy. This will cause major slides or uneven bumps which lead to crashes. This is why you need to know who you are with at all times, and the main person you want to work with you want to have communication with.

If you are following someone through traffic, don't bump them through, let them draft by cars, and you just stay in their draft so you can simply go by as well.

Oval racing is simplistically complex(Made no sense? Screw you. ). The fundamentals are easy and simple when done right, but once you know those, you can get it to the more complex situations which are very useful.

You know, if I had saved the replay of practice race #3 (I ran out of stash space). There were two drivers side by side, and they left plenty of room in the middle going through the middle of the tri-oval for me to fit in, and I just decided to lift because it was early in the race.

I am a little unstable, and I'm as capable of aggressive driving as anybody, but that moment just personified what I think the issue is.

Oval racing in these cars with this many people with the possibility of yellows is just asking for the constant yellow flag anyways. Only thing I know is to run a practice race or 2 without pace cars (or lower the conditions on which yellows are thrown), and see how it turns out.

The answer does not lie in the race's administration, but rather in it's competitor's mind set, and there's only so much that an Administration team can do for that.

There's my 2 pennies.

The first 2 Kyoto 250s (mainly the first one) had very long green runs in it. So it wasn't always like this. It's just people think they can squeeze into areas just because there is "room" like you said. This isn't always the case as most of us know.

"We have a brain for a reason, now lets all use it."

Quote from PMD9409 :

The first 2 Kyoto 250s (mainly the first one) had very long green runs in it. So it wasn't always like this. It's just people think they can squeeze into areas just because there is "room" like you said. This isn't always the case as most of us know.

"We have a brain for a reason, now lets all use it."

I was not around at all in this time, but was the Kyoto 250 more of an oval racer's only event back then? It seems to be a LFS wide event now days so we have inexperianced ovalers. They bring an entirely different mind set to the race. This may explain a little bit if it's true.

Not at all, but there were more of those that attended. Last year had a new-ish batch of people, and this year we have another new 60-70% of the grid. Just because you are new though doesn't mean you will be let off easy when making a mistake.

Quote from PMD9409 :

*snip*

I agree with what you say, especially at the 2nd dot, I was surprised that at each restart all drivers were so agressive
I think during the race that I was maybe so slow at each restart, but when I see crashs at restart, I think, finally, it's better to restart cool!

the issue is that this is a game, they have nothing to lose, they don't have the possibility of getting hurt or getting suspended for aggressive driving, they are not losing money for crashing a car either.

That is the issue here.