Not sure if trolling... but fairly certain it's OT
Or you could do without this silly safety car business...
If someone's stuck in the sand, they'll Shift-P. If someone crashes real bad and ends up on their roof, they'll cause a local yellow that ends when they Shift-P.
No one's life is on the line here. Local yellows are sufficient to warn drivers approaching an incident. If it isn't and contact is made with a driver who is recovering from an incident, that's the fault of the approaching driver(s).
This point has been made in multiple venues, multiple times, by multiple people, and the answer has always been:
Safety Cars will stay.
*added* No driver is permitted, in this series, to shift+s or shift+p from anywhere outside of a pit garage or pit stall. Doing so from on track earns a penalty.
I don't think there is a racing org in the world that would not do away with safety cars if there were a guarantee that no one would ever get hurt. Likewise, the real-life methods employed to remove a car from a track (rolling it behind a barrier, using a lift to move it behind a barrier) are essentially the same as a Shift-S.
You're deluding yourself if you think this does anything but stifle competition and add tedium for the sake of unnecessary "realism."
Why not go all out? Make sure everyone is using the exact same equipment (chair, speakers/headphones, wheel, pedals, monitor, CPU, motherboard, video card, RAM, internet connection, etc.). When everyone spawns at race start, make them all go back to the pits. Wait a while. Then send everyone out on a sighting lap. Make everyone find their own grid position.* Then wait some more. Have interviews with the drivers. Then send everyone out on a warmup lap. If someone crashes, make them pay money to repair their car. If someone gets a penalty, make them pay a fee. Make them pay for tires, fuel, transportation to the track, etc. Have real sponsorship contracts and competition for contracts. Give teams incentive to drop drivers who under-perform. If someone crashes hard, force them to sit out for a period due to "injury." Maybe forever.
Where does it end?
*I'd actually kinda like to see this one, because it was a bit of a shock when I had to do it in real life after just spawning where I needed to be for so long.
Or better yet, since you are the driver, don't get stuck in the sand or flip. I always thought that was the easy way out, but people seem to just complain about SC's just to complain about SC's.
I'm imagining deko looking at my list and thinking, "WOW! Those are some great ideas!"
I'm not saying I would flip or get stuck, but I can almost guarantee someone else will, and the resulting SC will ruin someone's race, perhaps mine. I don't care if you have the 32 best drivers in LFS, chances are someone is going to crash. It just reeks of artificial realism for realism's sake.
How are any of those things any different? They're other examples of artificial and unnecessary realism for realism's sake, much like this SC silliness.
What IndyCar series has all cars with exact same equipment?
What series grids, drives back to pits, waits, drives a lap, waits, gets out, waits, grids again, another warm-up lap, grid, and then start?
What Indycar series has drivers paying repair cost?
What Indycar series has drivers paying fees for DT's?
What driver pays for fuel, tires, and transportation?
None, not even driver/owners because there aren't any in Indycar.
Why aren't you complaining in the IGTC thread? They've had it all for 4 years.
You said yourself you can't make the races, so you are just complaining to complain. Man up.
hm... you seem to be 4 years late for that discussion. LFSCART was made to create that artificial realism you are critizising. It would be like taking away its reason for existence. There was also the FO8 division of OWRL. They were using this LFS-natural racing. And to be honest, I doubt LFSCART would exist today, if it was just racing FO8 because that gap was filled by OWRL, who were more popular, when LFSCART started, who were still more popular when LFSCART started to run under the NDR banner. The combination FO8+Oval races+Road cours races+full course cautions, that is it what makes LFSCART LFSCART.
If you don't like it, I cannot do anything about it but I can live with that fact.
But I cannot understand why you start mourning about a series you havn't been part of at any point.
If you have agressions, please go to the gym instead of flaming this forum.
EDIT: Btw. Why do you drive a simulation if you don't like artificial realsim? Don't you think, that contradicts your thesis about how crap artificial realism is? Isn't that a paradoxon? Live for speed does not reagard itself as an arcarde title, you know? If that is something you want, drive those Codemaster games or TrackMania...
You know what I mean. Replace "driver" with "team" if it makes you happy. You're just picking nits/debating semantics.
The "grid, drive back to pits" was due to the limitations of how LFS does race starts. You can't start a race from the pits and go grid up because you're automatically placed on the grid.
Its presence in a different series doesn't make it right nor worthwhile for this series.
I said I could not make two of the road races. I was seriously considering participating in the others until I heard about the safety car. I guess I'll have to save you the embarrassment of getting stomped by someone who hasn't played LFS with any regularity in years, though.
It's the difference between trying to accurately represent real life, natural phenomena based around man-made, tangible objects so that objects behave they way they should (i.e. physics), and trying to accurately represent man-made, intangible ideas and procedures in a particular series so that people behave the way they should, purely for the sake of imitation (i.e. safety car procedures).
Some rules/procedures are necessary for the sake of fair competition (e.g. no intentional crashing). Others are... not.
Ehm... both is imitation. The one is imitation of classical mechanics, the other one is imitation of the organisation of racing we experience (e.g. through the media). Either way, both are imitated by quantum mechanics.
Given the opportunity to improve upon a racing organization's procedures in a way that would improve competition, would you not capitalize upon that opportunity? Or would you prefer to dogmatically follow the existing procedures, even if it meant competition suffered as a result?
You're fighting a brick wall with a toothpick here, there's no way they'll change. Both ways of doing this (with or without SCs) have their followers, and NDR is definitely for it. Trust me, they've been doing it for a while and are pretty good at it (even if some racers aren't good at dealing with it), either race and accept it or don't and find something that suits your tastes better.
If he read carefully he would've seen it before, because I talked previously about OWRL.
Thank you for the compliment.
As I have stated before, that was the ecological niche for this series. Maybe speaking of the advantages of Safety Car periods first: If there is a major incident (car up side down) the racers are more cautious. Imagine yourself in a battle with another car. Behind your upcoming corner is a car upside down. Just landed, quickly Shift-S'd but stuck in a Lag. Because you're in the battle you wouldn't think much about the waved yellow flags in-game. So you're heading full speed to that place, and as it is behind a corner, you don't see it soon enough. So at high speeds you hit that car, whose driver really tried his best to spectate, but he wouldn't be allowed by LFS. Your race is done, his race was done already before and now, because you hit that car and you can collect other cars as well during the delay between shift+s and spectating. And if someone is connecting to the server for any reason in exactly that moment, you don't even need lag to create this situation.
When we call a Full-Course-Caution we are also acustically hearable. So you get two information, the visible and the acustical. Also you easier exept to crease racing because the order is frozen. For such a situation it can be safer. I don't say it is.
There are also disadvantages: E.g., the gaps are nilled and stuff like that. It is not really fair. But with Safety Cars the race can also be much more forgiving, wich is a way to keep up the motivation. You're half a lap down, because of an error and you do get another chance.
To answer your question, we both are dogmatically following our positions. Though I don't see myself as a dogmatical follower of reallife procedures, as I also like the no-SC thingy. But would you just change something which has succesfully worked the past 3 years, just because someone you do not know comes your way and says that it is the biggest bullshit what you have done? Why do you think we have 52 sign-ups so far? Because they don't know what they are doing? I doubt they do (just joking) but they know what it means to take part in such a series within NDR.
If that were the case and I plowed into someone, that's my fault for being an idiot and not heeding the local yellow. If further incidents are caused a result of my carelessness, I should be penalized.
And therein lies my problem with the safety car system: it makes it possible for the would-be winner to lose because of someone else's mistake halfway around the track, through no fault of his own. Not only that, the SC doesn't even serve its real-life purpose of saving lives. If the guy in second place makes a mistake, that mistake should carry on throughout the race. He should have to deal with it. That's competition. That's racing. If he manages to claw back the time lost and take the lead by being fast, not making mistakes, and being cautious enough to not caught up in someone else's nearby mistake, so much the better and so much more rewarding for him. That's what makes a winner. Being gifted back that lost time as a result of the safety car cheapens any improved result that driver may take.
I'd certainly consider it, even if it weren't coming from someone who has been with the sim for 8 years. I like to know people's opinions and what logically led them conclude such opinions are valid. "Because it's what we've been doing all along" or "because someone else does it" doesn't really follow logically, though.
SCs provide spectacle and fun for drivers and viewers alike. I'm glad we've got 'em. Some people will always bitch and moan about them (Forbin, scipy) and they're free not to race.
Another way to look at it is to say that the SC adds a significant challenge for the leader. He's got a 20-second lead; that lead evaporates; he has to fight to re-establish the gap. It also adds a strategic challenge, when it comes to the timing of pitstops and whatnot.
FTR, I agree with Forbin, but everyone who knows me knows that
I would say though, that this is NDR's event and they have the right to run it how they like. It makes the races more exciting for the spectators and the people who mess up.
I don't think you would react any different to such a criticism. And, btw, I don't care how long someone is doing something. If I did, I'd just believe in what the politicians say, because they are also doing it for years. I care about the idea and the idea of extinguishing one of the core elements of a league doesn't sound right to me.
Also: Why don't you answer to the fact that there is also another series without Safety Car procedures? Why should we do the same series again? It is on the same day, just the alterning week... That is something you did not answer to yet!
It would be like taking away its reason for existence. There was also the FO8 division of OWRL. They were using this LFS-natural racing. And to be honest, I doubt LFSCART would exist today, if it was just racing FO8 because that gap was filled by OWRL, who were more popular, when LFSCART started, who were still more popular when LFSCART started to run under the NDR banner. The combination FO8+Oval races+Road cours races+full course cautions, that is it what makes LFSCART LFSCART.
