justasimfan, do you happen to work for XMR or what are your reasons for promoting XMR so eagerly when obviously the game lacks of everything.

He did not even buy the game

Quote from kruuvi :

justasimfan, do you happen to work for XMR or what are your reasons for promoting XMR so eagerly when obviously the game lacks of everything.

It's pretty obvious to me. Justasimfan has been repeatedly expressing that he cares more about the looks than physics. Since XMR has "advanced graphics engine" (read engine using now 4 years old DX9c with a bunch of stupid HDR effects), he "sees a potential" in that game. The complete lack of tire model doesn't seem to bother him and that's why most of us will never get to an agreement with him.

Quote from DieKolkrabe :

I highly, HIGHLY doubt that. Would Scavier change LFS's price based on forum posts? Likely, no

Also did some research into your X-Plane BS, you have to buy specialized equipment at up to $500,000, plus X-Plane Pro at up to $5000 then talk to the FAA, adding in more cash. At that rate real lessons are cheaper

Critique's been made here, but the way I see it you're not happy with the feedback. I checked your LFSW times last night and you're about as slow as I am. Which is very.

The prices you are mentioning are for a high level 5 certified pro motion simulator that can lift an entire cockpit for 2 people and is based on at least 6 actuators...If you check ebay for flight simulator equipment you can have everything you need for under $10.000.A used Pro yoke costs around $2500-3000,rudders around $1000 more and throttle controls around $500-1000 more.Instrument panels cost around $500-$1000 each.For a level 3 certified sim you need the radio panel and the basic panels that small planes have.You can find all you need for around $7000-8000 dollars and you can buy the special x-plane version that has the usb for level 2 certification for $500 -plus the $30 that the basic version of xplane costs.
If you want to have a level 3 certification the special usb and software costs around $1000 plus the $30 dollars of the basic version.

And ofcourse there are the ultimate level 4-5 software and hardware that cost a little more but even those can be used with a much much cheaper motion simulation than what you talk about.Motion dynamics has some incredible flight/racing simulators that cost around $10.000-20.000 for the simple models and if you want the stronger models for use as an attraction or a flight school(or you are simply too heavy) they cost around $40.000 dollars.


And just to prove you just talk without making any research check here :
http://digitaledgepc.com/
Personally i prefer to built myself my computers and love the hotas but you can have a tri-monitor system complete with a semi pro yoke/rudders/throttle,the game and a level 2 cerification usb all for around $2500 dollars...From the 505.000 you mention to 2500 i think reality from what you say is different.

Quote from MadCatX :

It's pretty obvious to me. Justasimfan has been repeatedly expressing that he cares more about the looks than physics. Since XMR has "advanced graphics engine" (read engine using now 4 years old DX9c with a bunch of stupid HDR effects), he "sees a potential" in that game. The complete lack of tire model doesn't seem to bother him and that's why most of us will never get to an agreement with him.

I admit i do care a lot about the looks of games.But i also care about physics don't get me completely the wrong way.It is just that the very few simulators that can be called simulators are very lackluster graphically.I mean some of the best cars and tracks in rfactor do look quite good to be honest and the little content that exists for netkar is quite polished.And even the gtr evo and race on games are not that bad either.Even lfs with all the textures updated by lynce,electric kar etc.. can look almost decent.
But when i play shift 2 or grand turismo 5 as arcade as they are they often look bloody incredible.From the way light reflects on the pavement or the amazing weather effects,or the way light engulfes everything or the stitches on the car dashes ,to the audio nirvana those games archive...it makes you scream why the above sims cannot have the same graphical treatment...Don't forget that shift 1/2 developers are the same people behind the gtr games-the thing is that gtr 1 was made in 2005,gtr 2 in 2006 as the first race version and since then there were almost zero graphical improvements for the last 5 years....

Quote from justasimfan :

But when i play shift 2 or grand turismo 5 as arcade as they are they often look bloody incredible.From the way light reflects on the pavement ... ..it makes you scream why the above sims cannot have the same graphical treatment...

If you put it that way, then let me explain one thing. Maybe you don't realize it, but there is some pretty nifty, occasionally ugly and for a person without a degree in maths/physics nearly incomprehensible maths behind both physics and 3D rendering. Even middlewares like DX or OpenGL don't help, if you want your game to look great and run fast, you've got to do a lot of programming yourself; pixel(fragment)/vertex shaders and what not, it all takes time to code properly. Plus you have to make sure your engine will work on all generally available cards. Coding physics algorithms is actually easier in this respect, because there is no need to care about HW compatibility (well, there is some, but let's not get into details).
I'm sure you'll agree that racing sims are not exactly bestsellers, which means less funds and less developers can get involved. I bet that GT5 earned their devs more money that LFS, rF and nKP together.
With this being said, I guess you can see that racing sim's dev teams just don't have the manpower to have both top notch physics and graphics. It's up to you what you prefer, but generally you can not have both... at least not today.

Well you are right and that makes me wonder why nobody tries to license a high level 3d engine for their sim ? I mean both rfactor,gtr evo/race on and iracing use gmotor 2.Only netkar and lfs have their own proprietary engines.Why not license for example the shift 2 engine and improve its physics ? Or the dirt engine ? ( I mean the dirt engine was used in dirt 1/2/3 on grid and on formula 2010,it's extremely flexible and advance with dx11 now been fully supported...why not work from that point and improve the physics ? )

Answer:Cost and copyright issues.

I doubt EA would let an indie dev use the Shift 2 engine for cheap, if at all

Quote from justasimfan :

Why not license for example the shift 2 engine and improve its physic

SMS did use a although modified Gmotor engine.

Quote from justasimfan :

and iracing use gmotor 2.

iRacing does not and will never use any incarnation of the gmotor engine.

If you would know anything about sims and the roots of iRacing or SMS you should know that...

/thread

Shift 1 AND 2 use a Gmotor engine?

EDIT: The 505,000 I mentioned? From your link a page back.

I can't see any big software company allowing their engine (ISI excepted) to be used in an upstart dev team

Quote from DieKolkrabe :

No, Nic Hamilton has Cerebal Palsy, he's running in Clio cup this year. He's raced using a gamepad. I guess according to your narrow mindedness, he's not a simracer?

Considering he managed to roll it and then when we were walking around the paddock he just sat on a Golf Buggy with a long face, he's not much of a racer after all..

Maybe a lollypop would make it all better.

Quote from DieKolkrabe :

Shift 1 AND 2 use a Gmotor engine?

EDIT: The 505,000 I mentioned? From your link a page back.

I can't see any big software company allowing their engine (ISI excepted) to be used in an upstart dev team

No shift 1 and 2 use a physics toned down version of their ferrari project engine....A engine they were working on since the gtr 2 days back in 2006.

And about iracing somebody mentioned it does not use gmotor 2....Actually it does but it is very much modified.

Still there is hope in the name of rfactor 2.Isi works non stop to improve every single aspect and maybe...just maybe in the end it looks good too.

Wrong about iRacing, it uses their own engine, not GMotor. It's based off of NR2003 code, modified. NR2003 engine has nothing to do with ISI engine, Period. Go sign up for iR then say that on their forum, you won't get a nice reception.

Quote from DieKolkrabe :

Wrong about iRacing, it uses their own engine, not GMotor. It's based off of NR2003 code, modified. NR2003 engine has nothing to do with ISI engine, Period. Go sign up for iR then say that on their forum, you won't get a nice reception.

You won't get a nice reception no matter what you post on iRacing's forum. Never seen more elitist twats in my whole life.

They can't be that elitist if they let you in.

They let me in too, then again they are elitist.

Protip: Keep quiet

EDIT: Anyone wanna dig up the iR court documents that list the codebase?

Quote from boothy :

They can't be that elitist if they let you in.

*doesn't play iRacing or post on their forums*

Quote from MadCatX :

As far as I know you can practice only certain things like IFR navigation or approach on a certified sim and have it logged. It's definitely not like you can do the entire PPL on X-Plane.

ifr isnt even part of a ppl education... and neither is simulator training for that matter
from the top of my head you need x hours of sim training for an atpl or a type rating none of which count at all towards the 1500 hours of flight you need to obtain the full none frozen atpl no matter hwo advanced the sim is

Quote from Shotglass :

ifr isnt even part of a ppl education... and neither is simulator training for that matter
from the top of my head you need x hours of sim training for an atpl or a type rating none of which count at all towards the 1500 hours of flight you need to obtain the full none frozen atpl no matter hwo advanced the sim is

I know, I never implied any of that I just wanted to point out that even certified X-Plane or MSFS setups are great to learn the instrumentation and techniques that rely on them, but that's about it. IIRC you can hook a complete Garmin G1000 system to X-Plane and familiarize with it without leaving the ground. However, stall recovery, approach, landing and such is something you can never fully practice in a simulator...

true although sims have come a long way
also im not quite sure what the obsession that guy has with motion platforms is about... particularly when it comes to flight sims since generally the main thing to learn about the movement you feel during flight (or in most situations the movement you think you feel) is to ignore all of it especially in imc

Quote from Shotglass :

true although sims have come a long way
also im not quite sure what the obsession that guy has with motion platforms is about... particularly when it comes to flight sims since generally the main thing to learn about the movement you feel during flight (or in most situations the movement you think you feel) is to ignore all of it especially in imc

i always thought they where the way forward.... i mean.... FFB is one thing... actually getting a banger of a car ( i.e volvo 850 ) and fitting comp controller hydrolics ( or a fat bloke on the bonnet ) would make this and all other games truely more enjoyable ( and comfy if you have leather seats... )

Well that's the idea...And you don't have to spend a whole fortune to enjoy that kind of realism.There is a company that sells all the necessary electronics,actuators and software needed for making a 2 actuator or 3 Tri-actuator motion sim for under $1500.Its not that hard actually.

Check this page : http://www.x-simulator.de/wiki/Community_Projects

You can built the frame by yourself or ask from a welder to make you one.The only trick is to have him weld you the hub in the center of gravity were you are going to place your seat frame and have the seat back a strong metal frame attached.The actuators are the only expensive thing as they cost $340 each.Also remember if you are heavy preferable to use the slower but stronger actuators.And the rest are cheap stuff...