Intrepid just please watch the replay from Hamilton/Schumacher pass. Had Schumacher turned in he would've hit Hamilton, not the other way around.

''The only way to overtake is in a straight line and have it completely fully before the breaking zone''
Yes and no. You need to be side by side when you start turning in. Not when you start braking. You know why you risk getting penalty for hitting others? Because it's forbidden by the rules. All you who defend Hamilton are actually accusing the rules instead of Maldonado. Maldonado did what was right according to the rules and Hamilton didn't. Instead of slowing down and avoiding the collision he tried to push himself between Maldonado and the corner and CAUSED THE COLLISION. We could discuss about whether the rules are good or not but the way it stands Hamilton is to blame.

You are just making up your own rules and accusing Maldonado just because you happen to root for Hamilton. It's just disappointing. If you race in F1 you should obey the rules. Hamilton didn't was penalized and here you are whining how it was someone else's fault than Hamilton's even though there's no possible way it was anyone else's fault than Hamilton's. It's either no penalty due to the fact that it was not intentional (probably) and was a normal racing accident or it's penalty for Hamilton (due to reasons I stated before).

Quote from Juzaa :

Intrepid just please watch the replay from Hamilton/Schumacher pass. Had Schumacher turned in he would've hit Hamilton, not the other way around.

''The only way to overtake is in a straight line and have it completely fully before the breaking zone''
Yes and no. You need to be side by side when you start turning in. Not when you start braking. You know why you risk getting penalty for hitting others? Because it's forbidden by the rules. All you who defend Hamilton are actually accusing the rules instead of Maldonado. Maldonado did what was right according to the rules and Hamilton didn't. Instead of slowing down and avoiding the collision he tried to push himself between Maldonado and the corner and CAUSED THE COLLISION. We could discuss about whether the rules are good or not but the way it stands Hamilton is to blame.

You are just making up your own rules and accusing Maldonado just because you happen to root for Hamilton. It's just disappointing. If you race in F1 you should obey the rules. Hamilton didn't was penalized and here you are whining how it was someone else's fault than Hamilton's even though there's no possible way it was anyone else's fault than Hamilton's. It's either no penalty due to the fact that it was not intentional (probably) and was a normal racing accident or it's penalty for Hamilton (due to reasons I stated before).

I've recognised that F1 stewards lay the blame on Hamilton hence why I believe F1 to be a lame motorsport and Hamilton would be better of racing a motorsport that rewards proper racing. Racing where drivers know leaving a gap is silly and that turning in on another driver is something that's often stupid. This isn't a case of F1 should change... it's a case of racing something else like Montoya did and Kimi did. F1 really isn't all that.

The concept of having to be totally side by side on turn in is silly because a driver in front has 80% control of whether the car behind is allowed such room. Basically a driver can, if they so wish, turn in on drivers as he pleases if he possesses such awareness and timing. The only time it has been punished is when Schumacher mis-timed his move on Villeneuve.

However the turn-in is a move that has practically won two world championships - one for Schumi and one indirectly for Prost. I've seen drivers do is so many times and it gets a bit ridiculous that they go unpunished. You can legally take someone out of a race if you have the skills and timing to do so... it's pathetic. This isn't pro-Hamilton because I get equally as frustrated as other incidents of a similar nature.

The only rules that govern overtaking, are that it is done in a safe manner. It applies to the overtaker as well as the driver being passed.

No, I'm not rooting for Lewis here. I don't really have a favourite driver and enjoy seeing fair racing and decisions. I do however feel that Lewis was treated unfairly, for no other reason than the inconsistencies that the stewards applied. Massa took a strange line into Lowes and hit Webber before Lewis even hit him. If Red Bull wished, they could also complain to the stewards for that move, but that would not make it right, and natural justice came to bear when Massa threw it off the track anyway. Lewis was penalised for hitting Massa while using the curbs and pavement. I believe that was a good decision, and is consistent with Di Resta's penalty for a similar move.

Maldonado didn't deliberately turn in on Hamilton. I believe he just failed to realise he had lost the corner. Inexperience is probably the reason for this, and he should have been given a reprimand - not penalty - Lewis should not have been penalised for that move imo.

The stewards are there to interpret the rules where they apply, and to arbitrate incidents. Overtaking cannot have rules - every corner and situation is different, so rules are just folly. It's up to the drivers to make the decision in the cockpit. As we know, they don't always make the right decision, and sometimes they appear to make a dangerous one.

Lewis on Massa - wrong decision by Lewis and penalty is correct. Massa should have been penalised too but no complaint was made afaik.
Lewis on Maldonado - racing incident. No penalty, but Maldonado should be warned to pay more attention.

You are slowly getting my point. But these championships won by crashing were decades ago and you have to admit that there's currently at least one former professional driver in the jury which makes their decisions much better than before. The rules are what they are and everyone should drive by them. Even Hamilton. Besides if all professional racers felt that the rules needed changing they'd say so. Right now the only one who's having problems is Hamilton.
If the front car can block the pass 80% of the time I have no problem with that. That means that from every 5 attempts you'll get past once. If you're faster you'll get past withing 5 laps according to that, if you're not well...you don't get past.

Comparing Hamilton to Räikkönen is quite ridiculous. Räikkönen didn't crash even nearly as much as Hamilton. Räikkönen was fast and fair driver. He left F1 because he didn't like media and couldn't get a winning team that would let him drive rally when he wanted. And Montoya, come on give me a break that man was a joke. You can't compare him to either Hamilton or Räikkönen. Montoya was basic driver and he caused collisions so much that I believe Mclaren just got sick with him and threw him out. He never had the speed or mind to become a F1 champion.

Squeltch just watch this and tell me Hamilton hit Massa after Massa had hit Webber http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8dG9ID4ba0

If you think F1 is lame then don't watch it. But as long as F1 stands drivers are forced to follow the rules F1 has and if they don't they will get penalized. That's exactly what happened to Hamilton.

Quote from Juzaa :

If you think F1 is lame then don't watch it. But as long as F1 stands drivers are forced to follow the rules F1 has and if they don't they will get penalized. That's exactly what happened to Hamilton.

I am following F1 less and less because it's starting to become very stale and have these weird loopholes in that allow people to take people out if they are smart enough to do so. Rossi said recently MotoGP riders are a bunch of pussies, I think the same could be said for most of the F1 grid.

Overtaking should be edge of your seat stuff. Practically outlawing the concept of outbraking someone and then legalising the turn-in means you may as well only be allowed to overtake within the confines of straights and put out yellow flags just before every corner and green flags on the exit.

If we ever raced on LFS i can guarantee you wouldn't get by me ever without you colliding with me. Playing by your & F1 rules... you'd not overtake me... In fact you'd end up with all blame when we crash.

Senna was right - you're no longer a racing driver if you don't go for a gap that exists. It's quite clear to me that F1 isn't a racing series... it's a time trial where only the most overly clean moves in a straight line are allowed. No wonder Tilke is so popular with has massively long straights. Senna recognised the trend years ago... and it's rather sad because f1 can often be entertaining.

Quote from Juzaa :

Squeltch just watch this and tell me Hamilton hit Massa after Massa had hit Webber http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8dG9ID4ba0.

That clip is tight and doesn't show the run into the corner so well. Ok I concede that Lewis hit Massa fist, but I strongly believe Massa would have hit Webber anyway. His line was quite unorthodox and if he didn't hit Webber would have probably hit the barrier. He did turn in early, and is probably why Lewis feels so aggrieved by the decision. That said, Lewis was on the pavement, so the rule, if any was broken by him.

Quote from Intrepid :

This isn't pro-Hamilton because I get equally as frustrated as other incidents of a similar nature.

Which is why you've often brought this up in the past.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Which is why you've often brought this up in the past.

Of course Hamilton races in a manner much like Senna, Rossi etc... that always raises debate. I know which side of the racing fence I'd rather be on.

you're allowed to go into gaps that exist but if you see a gap that's going to close up for certain before you can fit yourself there properly attempting to ram into the gap is just plain idiocy. That's what Hamilton did. He knew that the gap wasn't going to last enough for him to fit there. But he still tried and failed.

When attempting an overtake you can not expect that the gap will stay there. You have to anticipate other racer's moves and where their cars are going. Hamilton saw Webber knew that Massa had to turn inside and still attempted the pass. Hamilton knew he was behind Maldonado, knew he'd turn in normally and still put himself into a position where he could not but crash.

You have to accept that you can't overtake in every corner every time and wait until you got a chance to pull off your move. Hamilton had the patience with Schumacher and didn't have it with Massa or Maldonado.

Quote from Intrepid :

The only reason the overtaker was along side fully was because the driver being overtaken had recognised the move early and not released the brakes as usual. it's quite simple to understand. Had Koby not seen Webber, he could have turned in taken Webber out, and Webber would've been punished. If Schumi hadn't have recognised the move and not conceded, Hamilton would have t-boned him exactly like he did with Maldanado. However Schumacher was a little smarter and saw he's left a gap and the mistake was made so didn't turn in early.

Maldanado made the mistake of leaving room on the inside. If I was him I'd be more angry at myself than at Hamilton. I've made the mistake myself... didn't blame anyone else but me. Leave a gap and you get punished. Don't pretend your blameless... this is motor racing... not motor driving in single file. Hence why I believe f1 and often single-seater car racing is quite often lame.

Even in LFS you can turn in on racers all day long and not get ONE ban request. Free pass to take people out, it's wonderful watching people apologise for doing nothing wrong.

If Kobyashi had turned in he would have touched Webber front wheel to front wheel. That's way different to Hamilton poking his nose in and cutting the corner then expecting everyone to leap out of his way.

Your argument is not strengthened by basing it on what happens in a computer game playing against rank amateurs. It's not a computer game - one of their colleagues was watching the race from hospital.

Hamilton isn't totally blameless because he took a risk. Not denying that! A risk by definition means it could go wrong. Every overtake at Monaco is a massive risk that always requires the driver in front to be AWARE at all times. However Maldanado is not totally blameless. You leave a gap on your inside you can expect someone to fill it. Williams were aware of Hamilton's ability to overtake there and yet didn't make sure Maldanado defended hard. Maldanado made the fatal mistake of not defending properly, and then not yielding. When the yellow came out I knew instantly it was Hamilton because it was plain obvious he'd make a move there if there was a gap. Why Williams didn't tell Maldanado to defend hard I do not know.

Had Maldanado been informed of the threat he would have finished 6th. He made a mistake and in the end Hamilton finished 6th and Mal didn't finish at all. Hamilton's move paid off in the end.

Quote from Storm_Cloud :

If Kobyashi had turned in he would have touched Webber front wheel to front wheel. That's way different to Hamilton poking his nose in and cutting the corner then expecting everyone to leap out of his way.

Your argument is not strengthened by basing it on what happens in a computer game playing against rank amateurs. It's not a computer game - one of their colleagues was watching the race from hospital.

If Koby decided to take the corner as usual Webber would have collied with him side onand Webber wouldn't been punished. If there was a wall there Webber wouldn't have made such a move and wouldn't have sufficiently got along side him. Koby did the smart thing and conceded the position because he didn't turn in.... a good driver knows when he's left a gap and concedes when a car is there.

the difference between a good overtake and a crash is whether the driver in front recognises his mistake and concedes. The driver in front has a real responsibility... yet is always totally blameless if an accident occurs

My example about LFS is demonstrating a general attitude, nothing overly scientific, that drivers in front rarely are blamed for incidents.

How can you say that Hamilton went for a gap since there was no gap he could fit in the corner. He deliberately took a risk and smashed himself into Maldonado's side. That risk paid off this time and proved that crashing is sometimes acceptable in the sport since Hamilton's 20 second penalty was just for the show it didn't mean anything.

You're right Maldonado didn't block the attempt early but he didn't have to because he was in front and stayed there throughout the straight. Hamilton couldn't have overtaken from inside since he was too far behind to get any room for free. You need to ''battle'' for the room, not just expect someone will leave room for you to go if you're behind. It was a reckless move and should've earned Hamilton a real penalty. Not one that didn't count.

Intrepid it's not the driver's in front responsibility to make sure they survive the corner it's the driver's who's behind. That's why drivers in front aren't blamed.

Quote from Juzaa :

Intrepid it's not the driver's in front responsibility to make sure they survive the corner it's the driver's who's behind. That's why drivers in front aren't blamed.

Its both of the drivers responsibilities. Just because you are in front does not give you a right to claim the corner, leave a gap, and then turn in all innocent as if to say the other driver wasn't there. Late lunges are bad yes I agree, but Lewis did not come from car lengths behind, he was right under Maldonado's wing.

This debate will rage forever it seems.

So people should have anticipated Hamiltons late brake up the inside Kamikazi moves and just let him through huh? Last time I checked it was the overtakers responsibility to make the pass without incident not vise versa. The person in front is completely entitled to hold the line and drive just like no one was behind them. If the idiot behind can't pass without a move that is nothing more than scare tactics and bullying then they don't deserve to be in F1. So much of Hamiltons "great overtaking" ability is actually just down to him having a reputation as making late lunges up the inside that people have no choice but to change their line to avoid a collision else risk being put out of the race altogether. Hamilton doesn't race with his head. He races from frustration and agression IMHO. To me that makes him a poor racing driver irrespective of his car handling skills. Same goes for any other driver that uses the same type of techniques. I know it's a fine line, but maybe Hamilton should do a bit of self reflection as to why he's been pulled up "5 times out of 6" rather than pulling the race card BS, (yeah he claims it was a joke.. I don't believe it .. he expressed what he really believed then realised it would look bad and tried to make light of it). I think he was let off extremely lightly for his remarks.

Finally, what is the point of a penalty that ends in no actual loss of points? 20 second penalty when he was so far ahead of the next car is laughable, he should be happy he was let off that second incident, as he didn't actually suffer from the so called penalty in any way. IMO he should have been given a placement penalty and knocked back two or more positions.

Quote from gezmoor :

So people should have anticipated Hamiltons late brake up the inside Kamikazi moves and just let him through huh? Last time I checked it was the overtakers responsibility to make the pass without incident not vise versa. The person in front is completely entitled to hold the line and drive just like no one was behind them. If the idiot behind can't pass without a move that is nothing more than scare tactics and bullying then they don't deserve to be in F1. So much of Hamiltons "great overtaking" ability is actually just down to him having a reputation as making late lunges up the inside that people have no choice but to change their line to avoid a collision else risk being put out of the race altogether. Hamilton doesn't race with his head. He races from frustration and agression IMHO. To me that makes him a poor racing driver irrespective of his car handling skills. Same goes for any other driver that uses the same type of techniques. I know it's a fine line, but maybe Hamilton should do a bit of self reflection as to why he's been pulled up "5 times out of 6" rather than pulling the race card BS, (yeah he claims it was a joke.. I don't believe it .. he expressed what he really believed then realised it would look bad and tried to make light of it). I think he was let off extremely lightly for his remarks.

Finally, what is the point of a penalty that ends in no actual loss of points? 20 second penalty when he was so far ahead of the next car is laughable, he should be happy he was let off that second incident, as he didn't actually suffer from the so called penalty in any way. IMO he should have been given a placement penalty and knocked back two or more positions.

"I am not leading the championship, so I will try to win the race and, if we crash, we crash!" Fernando Alonso on what'd happen if the race wasn't red flagged.

Every hard racer out there accepts the risks of racing at Monaco. So you believe Alonso is a bully driver then? He even stated he was WILLING to crash.

Gezmoor if you think the driver in front is always entitled to the line then I can categorically state if we ever raced you'd never pass me ever full stop. After 10 laps of being repeatedly turned in on and having your car wrecked to pieces you'd soon change your mind. And the great thing is, by your own rules, you'd be the one to blame. That's the insanity of having putting no responsibility on the driver in front. I of course wouldn't do that because I am not an idiot I know when to concede... i don't turn in like a complete idiot to a lump of metal is on my inside, and that only happens when I've left a gap I shouldn't have in the first place.

You would have to be an idiot to leave a gap and then blindly turn in not expecting a car to be there.

And this terrible thoughtless driving from Hamilton still has left him 2nd in the championship in front of all the more thoughtful drivers.... funny that isn't it?

Pirelli have asked for the tyre change under red flag to be reviewed.

Full story

I think we are all agreed on that at least.

Quote from Intrepid :

Gezmoor if you think the driver in front is always entitled to the line then I can categorically state if we ever raced you'd never pass me ever full stop. After 10 laps of being repeatedly turned in on and having your car wrecked to pieces you'd soon change your mind. And the great thing is, by your own rules, you'd be the one to blame. That's the insanity of having putting no responsibility on the driver in front. I of course wouldn't do that because I am not an idiot I know when to concede... i don't turn in like a complete idiot to a lump of metal is on my inside, and that only happens when I've left a gap I shouldn't have in the first place.

I dare say that if you were 1-2 seconds slower you would not. Remember that you're only allowed to change line once during straight. If you block the inside you lose speed to the next straight because you have to slow down (brake earlier) and can be overtaken in the next straight if the driver behind you gets outside and exits the corner faster. Remember that we've seen passes where the faster driver did not even pass from inside but from outside. You could probably keep him down few laps, that's all.

If I see I'm not going to fit inside then I do not go there, possibly show myself there and cut outside trying to get faster exit. Remember that if you drive inside in turn 1 you might end up outside in turn 2.

Passing isn't supposed to be easy. If it was it wouldn't be fun. All the greatest passes are extremely skillful and done so that the other had no way to defend from them. That's what makes 'em so special.


I agree with Squelch that the red flag rule should be changed. Without it we would've had extremely interesting last 5 laps.

Quote from Juzaa :

If I see I'm not going to fit inside then I do not go there, possibly show myself there and cut outside trying to get faster exit. Remember that if you drive inside in turn 1 you might end up outside in turn 2.

As I say I'd leave the door open into a corner and just blindly turn in on you. finishing your race immediately. I can release the brakes early and just turn in. Brake your car, brake my car, who cares I am not gonna get penalised, and your out the race anyway. If we were similar on pace then I can 100% guarantee you wouldn't get passed, wouldn't finish the race, and wouldn't see me gain a punishment but instead you would. This is by the rules you agree with.

Your basically outlawing passing on the inside of a corner... it's just madness.

Racing incident used to mean something. now it's 20 second penalty for this 20 second penalty for that...

Intrepid you're not allowed to turn on me if I'm side by side with you.
Have you lost your mind? Turning in regardless whe I am is only allowed if I'm behind you. You need to stay ahead of me which means that you have to block my pass attempt at straight most of the times well before the corner. If you wait until the corner to do your move 3-4 times out of 5 I'm already ahead of you or we're neck to neck. And if I'm behind once I see you're turning in or that I don't have a shot at overtake I just brake and don't try to ram myself there. You're clearly influenced by some sort of stuff since you can't think straight anymore. Just let it wear off and then come back.

Quote from Juzaa :

You're clearly influenced by some sort of stuff since you can't think straight anymore. Just let it wear off and then come back.

0:24 on this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... QnpFg&feature=related - according to you Gilles should have been given a penalty. That's a dive down the inside and he wasn't alongside at any point. It required Arnoux to take evasive action otherwise they would have crashed. Arnoux wasn't stupid and guess what?.... CONCEDED his track position. He didn't believe in just turning in because it was his right. He was smart and carried on racing because that's proper racing and that's what proper racing drivers do... not BLINDLY turn in when u leave a gap

That was known as the greatest F1 battle and that move directly goes against your philosophy of racing.

Quote from Intrepid :

0:24 on this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... QnpFg&feature=related - according to you Gilles should have been given a penalty. That's a dive down the inside and he wasn't alongside at any point. It required Arnoux to take evasive action otherwise they would have crashed. Arnoux wasn't stupid and guess what?.... CONCEDED his track position. He didn't believe in just turning in because it was his right. He was smart and carried on racing because that's proper racing and that's what proper racing drivers do... not BLINDLY turn in when u leave a gap

That was known as the greatest F1 battle and that move directly goes against your philosophy of racing.

What are you talking about? That's a clean pass. When the turn began they were both even. Arnoux had to take evasive action because he wasn't ahead. Villeneuve was alongside with Arnoux when Arnoux would've turned in. He couldn't because Villeneuve had braked later and gotten side by side with him and that's what made the pass so good and extraordinary. If you don't recognize the difference between being dead even at the corner and being few meters behind you really ought to get glasses. Really you're just making a fool out of yourself.

And how does it go against my philosophy of racing? If I'm in front I turn in normally. If someone dives in and makes it there before I turn in I let him go since I'm not allowed to dive into his side. You're really messed up.

It was a big dive, but he was all the way alongside. He didn't just dangle his nose in and expect Arnoux to leap out of the way.

Witness Lewis's radio comms about Massa "He just turned in on me on purpose".

It's not really about pulling two moves apart to the Nth degree, or dragging up examples from 30 years ago to prove the minutiae of an argument. It's a general issue about Hamilton which has been with him since GP2 and once again Brundle's summation is about right: "It can't always be the other guys' fault"

Listen to his interview "Massa blocked me in qualifying and I get the penalty." He got the penalty because he cut the course.

If you don't think you ever make mistakes, or you don't have anyone in your circle to tell you when you make mistakes then you don't learn and you don't evolve - and he needs to learn because he's not the finished article.

Like i said Darth Vettel Won, RBR Dominates again in this season.