On the other side the Audi 2 overtook a Peugeot with the 4 wheel outside the track. That is a DT normally. So I guess we can't say one's more fair than another ^^

It was because of very heavy traffic. It was either that, or shunt one of the GT's...

Plus I'm pretty sure the Pug was already lapped...

Quote from DevilDare :

It was because of very heavy traffic. It was either that, or shunt one of the GT's...

Plus I'm pretty sure the Pug was already lapped...

I'm not sure of the positions at the time, but I posted this just after it happened if anyone has footage or lap records of that time.

Quote from Squelch :

Audi takes to the service road to pass.
Wibble!

The Peugeot he overtook wasn't a battle for position. All 3 Pugs were there, and the leading one was infront of that battle where Audi #2 went around the outside and "off track".

It could also be looked at as "he was avoiding the corvette".

That was it - formation Pugs- 2 on the lead lap, and one a lap down.

I think that prompted a warning for off track excursions.

Regarding track limits - My understanding is that OCA are very strict on this because of marshal safety. That is, a warning is given for any and all track excursions that are not a result of an accident or avoiding one. Too many warnings results in stop/go. This is peculiar to this track I believe. I might be completely off the mark here however.

That particular incident could be interpreted two ways, over taking off track, or avoiding an accident, but I would hazard the former, and might even dare say Lotterer left the track trying to pass Davidson - you decide.

Oh it was a pass, but I bet he might say he was avoiding cars that were under blue flag.

Quote from ACCAkut :

may I ask, where did you get this link? I was told per mail that there is noe stream apart from that website one

It was linked on another forum. Previously they always had a direct link too. Obviously they'd like to get people visit the website (ads).

Quote from Flingoko :

Was thinking about that^^ On a Danish race site, an article describes that Davidson says he did not receive any team orders, but decided to block the Audi himself and that it was a part of sportcar racing. Also he said that the Audi´s blocked the Peugoet´s on Spa.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92282

I hope he is speaking the truth. Only him is better than the whole team.

In the video posted above, just after the blocking move, Quesnel has an interesting (surprised, imho) expression on his face.

But he said on his twitter that he didn't block? Something's fishy.

Davidson didn't actually make any defensive blocking moves that I saw. He did maintain his line throughout. He just made it hard for Lotterer who had the responsibility to make a clean pass. Had Lotterer been significantly faster than Davidson, then I believe there would have been more blue flags shown, fault could have been shown, and a possible infraction for ignoring them.

I'm probably wrong, but blue flags at Le Mans are an advisory only, and there's no such "pass ten blue's and you break the rules". They warn the driver that the car or cars behind are significantly faster. The only time an official inquiry happens is when they are ignored by significantly slower car which create a safety concern. Davidson was shown few if any blue flags, and was a match for Lotterers speed within a second or two. #7 was only a couple of laps down due to the off that Wurz had, and not because it had been consistently slower.

It could have been seen another way if the Audi was blocking the Peugeot who was trying to unlap. Say for arguments sake, the Pug was significantly faster after rejoining, then I would expect to see blue flags shown to the Audi even though it was laps ahead in the lead. A handful of laps lead is nothing in Le Mans, and can quite quickly, or easily be cancelled out by a minor incident - like Wurz running off line while on the lead lap and needing repairs.

No fault found with Davidson's behaviour from my point of view. He made Lotterer work hard to put him another lap down, and did relinquish the place once Lotterer started taking risks - like getting on the dirty line at the chicane.

Quote from Squelch :

Davidson didn't actually make any defensive blocking moves that I saw. He did maintain his line throughout. He just made it hard for Lotterer who had the responsibility to make a clean pass. Had Lotterer been significantly faster than Davidson, then I believe there would have been more blue flags shown, fault could have been shown, and a possible infraction for ignoring them.

I'm probably wrong, but blue flags at Le Mans are an advisory only, and there's no such "pass ten blue's and you break the rules". They warn the driver that the car or cars behind are significantly faster. The only time an official inquiry happens is when they are ignored by significantly slower car which create a safety concern. Davidson was shown few if any blue flags, and was a match for Lotterers speed within a second or two. #7 was only a couple of laps down due to the off that Wurz had, and not because it had been consistently slower.

Anthony was 4 laps down... Lotterer was smoking all the Pugs in terms of laptimes, and had to crawl to a halt when he got stuck behind the number 7. The main reason he could not get past was because Audi was simply not quick enough on the straights, and as soon as he would get out of the slipstream, the Pug would run away again. Anyway, there is no question Ant was blocking, because the couple of times Lotterer was going for a move, Anthony would just retake his line, cutting off the Audi, instead of just saying, "OK, you managed to take the line and I am 4 laps down, so I'll let you go now". I'm not even going to mention Gene and his attempts to keep Lotterer behind in the closing hours... It could have very easily ended up in a wall and then Peugeot would have had an unfair, undeserved win. Needless to say their reputation would have gone down the drain...

And no, blue flags were not shown. Not a single one. Instead, ACO called in Dr.Ullrich and warned them for, "not respecting track limits". Well here is a tip genius, get some blue flags out so they don't have to go off track in the Porsche curves to get by a car that is not in contention anymore.

To finish off, Lotterer quickly left the 7 in the dust when he finally managed to sneak past, so to say he was not quick enough is just ridiculous.

Ant was dumb, Gene was damn right retarded with that move in the chicane. Peugeot were desperate, and nearly ruined whats now one of Le Mans classics.

Quote from DevilDare :

Anthony was 4 laps down... Lotterer was smoking all the Pugs in terms of laptimes, and had to crawl to a halt when he got stuck behind the number 7.

They were hardly smoking them - slightly faster due to the pit strategies, but terms like smoking and halt are a bit strong

Quote :

The main reason he could not get past was because Audi was simply not quick enough on the straights, and as soon as he would get out of the slipstream, the Pug would run away again.

Exactly, there was no clear advantage in speed. If it was a clear air time trial, I'd support your view, but this is sportscar racing, and endurance at that. The Audi's were slower on the laps they encountered traffic not because they were necessarily held behind, but were unable to maintain the pace in dirty air.

Quote :

Anyway, there is no question Ant was blocking, because the couple of times Lotterer was going for a move, Anthony would just retake his line, cutting off the Audi, instead of just saying, "OK, you managed to take the line and I am 4 laps down, so I'll let you go now".

This depends on your definition of blocking. I understand it to be a change of line that intentionally impedes the following driver who has made a move to overtake. Ant kept his line and didn't weave or change line so no blocking was involved. If on the other hand you define blocking as simply being on the race line and therefore in the way, then I'd agree, but please show me where this is written.

Quote :

I'm not even going to mention Gene and his attempts to keep Lotterer behind in the closing hours... It could have very easily ended up in a wall and then Peugeot would have had an unfair, undeserved win. Needless to say their reputation would have gone down the drain...

I wasn't talking about Gene, and agree that certain tactics are unsportsmanlike. Ant didn't cross that line in my opinion.

Quote :

And no, blue flags were not shown. Not a single one. Instead, ACO called in Dr.Ullrich and warned them for, "not respecting track limits". Well here is a tip genius, get some blue flags out so they don't have to go off track in the Porsche curves to get by a car that is not in contention anymore.

Blue flags are to warn of faster cars behind. There is a bit of leeway in the definition of faster, and a couple of seconds per lap is hardly significant - not insignificant granted, but certainly not a large closing speed in any one part of the track. #7 was hardly out of contention either. It was still lapping around the 3:30's - the lead pace - and was only lapped due to an incident. Races have been won in the past where the lead car was laps ahead, only to succumb to a problem in the closing stages. Over 24 hours, a couple of laps are relative.

Track limits is a completely different matter in this debate. They are there for safety. A broken down car, or marshal could very well be just off the track, and given this is a semi road course where run off areas are hard to make, this rule is enforced very tightly. The only relaxed place at Le Mans seems to be the Ford chicane where cars seem to cut it fine without too much attention. To leave the track to make a pass has been severely penalised in the past I believe, and to run the red lane along Mulsanne straight is a no no.

Quote :

To finish off, Lotterer quickly left the 7 in the dust when he finally managed to sneak past, so to say he was not quick enough is just ridiculous.

The Audi was on new tyres, and the Peugeot's tyres were on there fourth stint. The Audi had been slower on old tyres too, so again its relative, and we are talking about the very closing stages here. Have you forgotten the lead was swapping throughout the night? That hardly reflects the Audi romping away. In fact is was suggested the Audi short stint strategy may not have worked if there hadn't been a protracted 2 hour plus safety car. I think they played a blinder with what they had, and well done to them for the win of course.

Quote :

Ant was dumb, Gene was damn right retarded with that move in the chicane. Peugeot were desperate, and nearly ruined whats now one of Le Mans classics.

I'll still defend Ant, but find it harder to do with Gene. It was borderline for me with regards to him. Did he break any written rules? I don't think so. Ask if he took some totally unnecessary risks and acted unsportsmanlike? I'd probably agree.

Quote from Squelch :

They were hardly smoking them - slightly faster due to the pit strategies, but terms like smoking and halt are a bit strong

Huh? The reason their pit strategy worked, WAS because the drivers were pumping in blindingly quick laptimes. Peugeot were able to push out an extra lap in their stints, and yet Audi was still leading.That is simply due to outright pace. Especially when that beast Lotterer was in front of the wheel. During the night, yes the pace was similar. But you also got to remember Audi were still using the harder tires for most of the night shift, while Pug's were already pumping in laps on the softest compound.

And yes, the SC helped to some extent, but the pace was genuine and clearly faster than Peugeots. 3 seconds around Le Mans is considered to be quite a lot. I remember Audi were genuinely worried in 2008 when Peugeot was 3/4 seconds quicker...

Quote :

Exactly, there was no clear advantage in speed. If it was a clear air time trial, I'd support your view, but this is sportscar racing, and endurance at that. The Audi's were slower on the laps they encountered traffic not because they were necessarily held behind, but were unable to maintain the pace in dirty air.

That is bullshit... I'm sorry, it really is. Audi was able to make up all the time lost AND more through porsche curves, and the last sector overall. The only driver I can remember from the top of my head that was able to match Lotterer's fastest lap time was Pagenaud. But he was in the leading Peugeot, and has nothing to do with our discussion.

Quote :

The Audi was on new tyres, and the Peugeot's tyres were on there fourth stint. The Audi had been slower on old tyres too, so again its relative, and we are talking about the very closing stages here.

Pretty sure when they were battling with the number 7, they were both on very similar tires in terms of life time. And yes, even with that in mind, the Audi still broke free as soon as he got past Ant, and then Gene.

I dont even know why we are discussing lap times/tires now... The point is, blue flags should have been out, and Ant should have moved over. Not because the rules say so, but because he knows better as a driver. He was getting involved in a lead battle for no reason. He was 4 laps down, and was lapping slower. Albeit not by much while he was ahead, but enough to justify, "get the feck out of the way".

Midweek motorsports is on tonight at 8pm on Radio Le Mans. No doubt they will be discussing this same issue with their guests. Should be a good listen.

Quote from DevilDare :

Huh? The reason their pit strategy worked, WAS because the drivers were pumping in blindingly quick laptimes. Peugeot were able to push out an extra lap in their stints, and yet Audi was still leading.That is simply due to outright pace.

Not necessarily. the audi's were short fuelling too so they gained time in the pits too

Quote :

Especially when that beast Lotterer was in front of the wheel. During the night, yes the pace was similar. But you also got to remember Audi were still using the harder tires for most of the night shift, while Pug's were already pumping in laps on the softest compound.

The fastest lap time was matched. Yes Lotterer was demon behind the wheel, but he wasn't consistently setting records. This was during the golden hours of dawn when the cars are at their best.The lap times fluctuated between 3:27 and 3:30 for the most part, and for both teams. I think the Pugs were on medium, but I'm not certain on that. The Audi's won by spending the least time in the pits overall, not just outright pace on the track. That couple of kg's of fuel was the difference.

Quote :

And yes, the SC helped to some extent, but the pace was genuine and clearly faster than Peugeots. 3 seconds around Le Mans is considered to be quite a lot. I remember Audi were genuinely worried in 2008 when Peugeot was 3/4 seconds quicker...

They were both on very similar pit strategies then, so yes it would be a concern. The extra pit stops that Audi required would have been a deciding factor in the last race. The SC let them off a bit, by nulling out an extra stop they would have had to make.

Quote :

That is bullshit... I'm sorry, it really is. Audi was able to make up all the time lost AND more through porsche curves, and the last sector overall. The only driver I can remember from the top of my head that was able to match Lotterer's fastest lap time was Pagenaud. But he was in the leading Peugeot, and has nothing to do with our discussion.

The Porsche curves were where the Audi was strongest I agree, but because they had higher downforce, the straights allowed the Pugs to pull away - significantly. The average lap times were close when fuel loads and tyres are taken into consideration. Individual sections of the track played to the individual strengths of the cars. I'm not offended by the BS accusation, but it really was much more balanced than you seem to be implying with terms like smoking and halt

Quote :

I dont even know why we are discussing lap times/tires now... The point is, blue flags should have been out, and Ant should have moved over. Not because the rules say so, but because he knows better as a driver. He was getting involved in a lead battle for no reason. He was 4 laps down, and was lapping slower. Albeit not by much while he was ahead, but enough to justify, "get the feck out of the way".

Where it is so close, the lap times, tyres, and pit strategies do come into play. I stated earlier, that a handful of laps can very quickly get eaten up. I'll point out again, that #7 was on the lead lap and pushing #2 very hard until the off. Why would they stop pushing when they still have the same pace? Ant kept his line and nothing more. The race was still on, and he did not move to block an overtake. An incident like Wurz, a puncture, or any other mishap for the Audi team would mean the #7 would still be right at the sharp end again.

Some may argue that Gene was also keeping the line, and Lotterer made a lunge down the inside. Because they are laps down, does not obligate them to move off line to let others pass. A significant speed difference makes that harder to justify keeping your line, but lap times simply don't show this is true. I said I find Gene harder to defend and note you made a ninja edit, because we probably are in agreement here.

Edit:

Quote from DevilDare :

Midweek motorsports is on tonight at 8pm on Radio Le Mans. No doubt they will be discussing this same issue with their guests. Should be a good listen.

I'll try to listen to it. It should be interesting to get "the professionals" view on it. My humble point of view is probably biased, misinformed, and completely at odds, but that is how I see it and try to keep balanced.

We are not going to agree it seems, so I see no point in writing a long reply. Simply put, in my opinion Ant could have done better in that situation. Thats it.

You think otherwise, and I'm fine with that.

Also the edit was to remove a paragraph in which I just repeated myself to what I said in...

Quote :

I dont even know why we are discussing lap times/tires now... The point is, blue flags should have been out, and Ant should have moved over. Not because the rules say so, but because he knows better as a driver. He was getting involved in a lead battle for no reason. He was 4 laps down, and was lapping slower. Albeit not by much while he was ahead, but enough to justify, "get the feck out of the way".

Quote from DevilDare :

We are not going to agree it seems, so I see no point in writing a long reply. Simply put, in my opinion Ant could have done better in that situation. Thats it.

You think otherwise, and I'm fine with that.

That's just it, different points of view, and I'm probably as happy with mine as you are with yours. If we all agreed on everything, the world would be a boring place.

Oh and edits seem to confuse things a bit - please see mine above

I can't seem to find a video showing what Anthony did, plenty of Gene being a dildo, but none of Ant. Anyone have a link?

Quote from pik_d :

I can't seem to find a video showing what Anthony did, plenty of Gene being a dildo, but none of Ant. Anyone have a link?

I'm afraid not, and would have liked to have a video reference for his defence. If anyone finds one I'd be interested too

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92396

According to Autosport, Toyota has been busy.

I also read in the "L'Equipe" on race day that Mazda is planning a return? Furai?

Another thing bugs me: I heard the 787B did demo laps on the morning before the race. Is that true?

I sat 3 hours in traffic, and I missed my fav car? SHOTGUN.

Furai was just a concept and very little to do with LMP or even future regs.

Johnny Herbert & 787B: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqQEAfPnhio

Quote from Swiss-Spirit :

Another thing bugs me: I heard the 787B did demo laps on the morning before the race. Is that true?

I sat 3 hours in traffic, and I missed my fav car? SHOTGUN.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... V4ZwFk&feature=relmfu

Edit: nvmd

GODDAMNIT. I could cry. Feckign traffic jam. We arrived at around 10:00 on Saturday, but it took 3 HOURS to get to the parking lot.

Damn. Blocked by muppets who don't give a **** about it and just want to be early for the race.

Now I missed the sound again, and that's probably the only chance I ever got to hear it live(At least I saw it standing in the Mazda tent, and this time NOT the replica which is inside the Le Mans museum).

Feck feck feck.

LOL Johnny gets to do what he couldn't 20 years ago: Standing on the podium

Wouldn't be surprised if Mazda did field a car or engine. I remember they supplied a engine to a P2 team awhile ago and then the furai soon after. They're up to something. Just taking abit longer.

Dyson Racing in ALMS... :rolleyes: