I'm kinda with yer there preacher.

I actually don't think it's my place to make suggestions per se. I think I have made one since I joined and even that was a bit half hearted.

I've payed for a product because I can't do it myself. If I really want my speedo to look a certain way or for my skidmarks to show then I will go and make a game myself. But I can't, so I pay for someone else to do it. And I'm very happy with the result. If I wasn't, I'de go somewhere else.

Scawen talks about lots of stuff I have no comprehension about, I play the game ( Or will when I get a rig again) and I'm over the moon with it, s'not my place to tell him how to make his game. (Although I am still an opionated bastard)

Quote from Gunn :

Well it (test patch beta team special forum) would minimise the need for Scawen to wade through uneccessary posts in order to gauge patch feedback. It would also keep the relevant test patch discussion focused in just one place. Two fair reasons not to release it publicly in the event of a private test forum.

surely the test patch beta team special forum people would post their useful discussion in the test patch beta team special forum, yeah? Not like Scavier is forced to read every random thread around the place if he doesn't want to. Anyway, fairly useless discussion this one so I'm done on this point.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Despite the fact that I have the most posts here, I don't feel the need to vent my brain in every thread of Scawens (or anybodies) if it is above me. I suggest a few more people here do the same.

I think this is the major factor myself. Many of the less established members see a post by Scawen and think, "oh I've got to post in the same thread as the dev, and look like I know a lot." Just trying to impress I guess?

The U11 patch mainly happened whilst we were away this weekend at the karting, and I came back to find 3 or 4 pages of people asking the same thing, which meant in the end I just decided to go back to post 1 and just download rather than contribute to the discussion.

I'm all for a "special team" so to speak, if it improves the discussion and ultimately progress of each development.

I've been a bit away from this forum for the past week, only keeping an eye on the most important threads. But now that I completely read thru the test patch thread, I can't personally think of any reasons why there shouldn't be a group of test patch testers who are dedicated to finding bugs or giving suggestions ABOUT the added features in the test patch.

That would mean that there wouldn't be any un-necessary rambling on about suggestions that have nothing to do with the test patch that is being tested, thus saving Scawens time (and patience).

People really need to post their suggestions, that have nothing to do with the test patch, in to the improvement suggestions forum. I bet some of the people who posted their off-topic suggestions in the test patch thread just because they think devs don't read the improvement suggestions subforum, but trust me, I'm sure they do read there even if they aren't replying in to each suggestion made over there.

Is it really such a big problem that some people ask stupid questions or don't read the first post that the thread has to be stopped? The solution is to ban them? After all they all paid for the product and want it to be better, I don't think that any dev should treat them as idiots even if they don't read through the whole thread.

Quote from csimpok :

I don't think that any dev should treat them as idiots even if they don't read through the whole thread.

It's just very rude for people to post questions, and waste everyone else's time, over and over and over and over again with the same question or comment, when the question is already answered, either in bold type in the first post, or in several posts after that.

If someone wants to be so rude and this happens over and over again then of course, I will eventually say it is stupid or rude. I've got quite a lot of patience but it is not limitless. I tried so hard to get all the needed info into the first post. The useful suggestions on the U10 / U11 thread would have fitted onto one page, but because people refused to read any of the thread, it turned into eight pages, with useful information spread very thinly.

I don't think there is anything wrong with treating them like idiots, if idiots are what they are. I'm an idiot, people treat me like one all the time. It's a great place to be. Get such a wonderful veiwpoint on the world if your in the idiot corner.

I can understand why people post suggestions and the like ina thread such as the patch thread. It's actually a fairly natural thing to happen and somewhat ineviatable.

Thus if true, educated and considered feedback is requiered then a secure forum is needed. Otherwise this kinda of thing will just keep repeating itself over and over again.

Let's imagine you owned a small shop and you're working at the till. And let's suppose the light in the drinks fridge was broken. And you put a sign on the door, saying "The light is broken, sorry". And you tried to position that sign so it's impossible that anyone could open the fridge without seeing the sign.

And then you find that 1000 people visit the shop, and 100 of them say "Mate, the fridge light is broken". And some of them shouting across the shop "Mate, the fridge light doesn't work". It would begin to become irritating. At first you'd smile and say "Yes, thanks". Gradually you'd begin to say "Yes, I know". Slowly you'd start to say "Yes, there is a sign on the door". Then, "Yes, that's why there is a sign on the door". Soon you'd start to take a breath and growl quietly, "Yes I know that". Eventually it would be like "I've put a sign on the door! Why does no-one read it?" Then the next person would start to fire up adrenaline rushes as you hold back your anger "Can you read? There's a sign on the bloody door that says the light doesn't work!"

The same thing already starts to happen with the Script System thread. Alot of these requests are far beyond "absolutely needed", yet it's still abused as a personal wishlist. I'd say, just implement enough to make the original idea work, namely control rebindings. A powerful script system like seen in many FPS shooters is something nice, but should be schedueled for a later time. It's nothing that "must be" in the U12 patch.

Anyways, I agree, seeing the request flood was kinda painful. OT posts (like I did some ) weren't that helpful either. So I kinda agree on a seperate hidden section, the question remains is how to select the members that have access?

Quote from Scawen :

Let's imagine you owned a small shop...

Judging from many "A**hole customers" threads on SA, this actually isn't too far from reality

(or rather: )

Quote from Scawen :

Let's imagine you owned a small shop and you're working at the till. And let's suppose the light in the drinks fridge was broken. And you put a sign on the door, saying "The light is broken, sorry". And you tried to position that sign so it's impossible that anyone could open the fridge without seeing the sign.

And then you find that 1000 people visit the shop, and 100 of them say "Mate, the fridge light is broken". And some of them shouting across the shop "Mate, the fridge light doesn't work". It would begin to become irritating. At first you'd smile and say "Yes, thanks". Gradually you'd begin to say "Yes, I know". Slowly you'd start to say "Yes, there is a sign on the door". Then, "Yes, that's why there is a sign on the door". Soon you'd start to take a breath and growl quietly, "Yes I know that". Eventually it would be like "I've put a sign on the door! Why does no-one read it?" Then the next person would start to fire up adrenaline rushes as you hold back your anger "Can you read? There's a sign on the bloody door that says the light doesn't work!"

Lol ok I understand but that last customer surely wouldn't come back to your shop again, neither his/her friends or relatives

I do agree with most of what people have said here. I usually thoroughly read the devs' posts in any topic in which I am posting as they cover most of the important information. I skim-read through the rest of the thread if it is too long but sometimes I just miss something. It is difficult to thoroughly read a several page thread where relevant information is scarce. I think it was in the U7 thread where I suggested something already posted by someone else... I felt a bit silly afterwards. I'll try to be more thorough in my reading next time if I wish to post I guess...

Shame some people don't understand the meaning TEST Patches.

It's the time the Devs need to activate ANNA:

http://basshunter.m0o.eu/anna/index_en.php

She will dominate LFS Forums and IRC.

Scawen said what many of us are thinking: we seem to tolerate stupid behaviour too much. I'm not saying people are stupid, they just do stupid things sometimes, and they deserved a slap so they don't do it anymore. And its very simple and easy thing to do: just read first and think a little before you post (if you need to post at all), nothing else. I always review my posts couple of times just so I don't look like an idiot, and I probably slipped on some occasions too.

Now that the supreme authority have spoken on this I really hope things will get better, and people will pay more attention.

Heh, while I was typing this, axus already said the same thing.

No exclusive test groups, no hidden forum sections etc., just good old aggressive, but righteous, forum moderating is what we need.

Mods who are aware of the "big picture" and will simply delete, or erase posts with a note, that include already asked questions or useless posts in patch/test patch threads or otherwise important threads (also suggested by thisnameistaken).

Quote from Scawen :

Let's imagine you owned a small shop and you're working at the till. And let's suppose the light in the drinks fridge was broken. And you put a sign on the door, saying "The light is broken, sorry". And you tried to position that sign so it's impossible that anyone could open the fridge without seeing the sign.

And then you find that 1000 people visit the shop, and 100 of them say "Mate, the fridge light is broken". And some of them shouting across the shop "Mate, the fridge light doesn't work". It would begin to become irritating. At first you'd smile and say "Yes, thanks". Gradually you'd begin to say "Yes, I know". Slowly you'd start to say "Yes, there is a sign on the door". Then, "Yes, that's why there is a sign on the door". Soon you'd start to take a breath and growl quietly, "Yes I know that". Eventually it would be like "I've put a sign on the door! Why does no-one read it?" Then the next person would start to fire up adrenaline rushes as you hold back your anger "Can you read? There's a sign on the bloody door that says the light doesn't work!"

And if you lock the fridge in another room then they won't bother you . . . ;o). It could be your special drinks fridge with only your special drinks in. That need to be kept in the dark untill they are ready. And only your friends know where the fridge is, and they give you a nod and a wink as they pass the counter and you slip them the key to the door. They drink from the fridge then slip you a note saying thankyou as they leave. Then noone bothers you about the light in the fridge. Either that or just lock the door and bugger off down the pub, which is what I would do.

See. I'm an idiot. Great innit.

I myself try to keep out of those test patch threads, I read Scawen's post(s) and skim the thread trough if I see anything interesting, the longer posts made by the smart guys are usually worth a read. But I try not to post anything myself because I think anything which isn't relevant is just pure spam, improvment suggestions arent alllways but if they dont have nothing to do with the subject then they are. The thankyouthankyouwowawsomeonene is spam too.

edit. Good post were made while I was typing this one. I agree with Misko and SlamDunk. But in the other hand the testpatch posting area would be good. Its Scavier's desision what ever they are going to make, and I believe they can make the right one.

As the LFS userbase grows over time, things change. Some for the better, but certainly some for the worse as well. Because of this maybe it will be necessary to change the way you deal with people, bugs, suggestions and so on.

I'm definitely not saying the problem lies with you, and that it shouldn't be possible to do it like you have done it up till now, I'm just saying mabe a change is inevitable, and the solution can only be with you.

The problems in the patch thread (and others) really isn't an LFS related problem. It happens in all big internet communities. People not reading FAQ's, people not reading first posts, people being impatient or egotistical, etc, etc.
Having to wade through a thread to find bugs will soon start/is starting to be an enormous task keeping you away from doing what you love best and are good at, which is ofcourse improving an already great sim.

I was thinking, and maybe I'm completely misjudging the effort needed to pull that of so excuse me when I am, of a bug report system. Something along the lines of Mozilla's bugzilla system. People can submit bugs to a webbased database, people who are experiencing the same bugs can vote for these bugs, giving an impression of the severity/rareness of a particular bug. When reporting/voting for a bug people need to fill in their pc specs (could be stored in a profile or something).
I realise it will be inevitable that people will submit duplicate bugs there too, but I think it will filter out at least a good part of it. Maybe the system could have several area's, like usability bugs, physics bugs, etc. They could even be moderated by a willing group of forum members/forum moderators who have knowledge of a certain aspect. But the voting could filter out a big chunck of useless stuff I think.

Anyway, maybe this isn't possible, maybe it's just not how you want to work, or maybe it will take too much time to setup. This is just me thinking out loud

One last note about people thinking that just because they paid for the product they should be able to do as they please: the costumer is king, as long as he or she behaves like one.

Quote from SlamDunk :

No exclusive test groups, no hidden forum sections etc., just good old aggressive, but righteous, forum moderating is what we need.

Mods who are aware of the "big picture" and will simply delete, or erase posts with a note, that include already asked questions or useless posts in patch/test patch threads or otherwise important threads (also suggested by thisnameistaken).

I think I'm going to have to agree with this suggestion.

It took me 40 minutes to read through the U10/11 Test patch thread, only to extract several posts that were important (the first one, and several interesting, and on-topic posts).
If users like myself find it annoying to skim through a test patch thread, I can only imagine the annoyance it would be to the developers to have to read through all the bullshi- posts.

Please, save the developers some time and grief (Scawen especially), and read the thread entirely to be certain you are not posting a repeat report. And I encourage moderators that are not directly involved with development to moderate any off-topic or repeat-report posts in the patch, and test patch threads in future.

Sincerely,
d0gZpAw

Quote from NukeLane :

It's the time the Devs need to activate ANNA:

http://basshunter.m0o.eu/anna/index_en.php

She will dominate LFS Forums and IRC.

Hehe, cool.
Never thought of the lyrics, just found his voice annoying when our 13-year old girl plays it all day
Translation is 100% btw.

/Fredrik

Hi there, I'm not a frequent poster on this forum and I don't want to judge on things people have written here, but I understand the frustration Scawen is feeling at the moment. I like LFS as much as anyone else on the tracks and in this forum and that's why I want to place an idea here. Make a sticky post that contains a list with everything that is on the todo-list of the devs. In that way, people can clearly see what's to come, so they don't have to ask for it. A second post should contain the most wanted things, so everyone can see what kind of things the 'community' wants the most. If people refuse to read the topic and starts all sorts of questions,wishes etc. etc. you can simply point them to the sticky topic with a PM and remove the posting(s). I hope this posting is readable enough, since my english isn't that good.

To-do list wouln't be good, people would get hyped and disappointed if something wansn't done, and oh the headacke you can get in those threads when people start moaning "it was in da todolist and its not in the patch!!!". And it would take time from really working allso, updating, thinking is this good/bad thing to put on the list, posting and all that. If Scawen works that time we are all much happier in the end.

Quote from Blackout :

To-do list wouln't be good, people would get hyped and disappointed if something wansn't done, and oh the headacke you can get in those threads when people start moaning "it was in da todolist and its not in the patch!!!". And it would take time from really working allso, updating, thinking is this good/bad thing to put on the list, posting and all that. If Scawen works that time we are all much happier in the end.

The main idea with the to-do list is to give a view into the developement proces, to take away questions that will be asked over en over again. I know there's a danger in people complaining why things aren't in patch X etc. etc. but if the sticky cleary states that it's all work in progres until S2 is final, people should be smart enough to understand that not everything can be done at once. As said, I realy like LFS, the only thing missing is some more information on what's going on in the developement. A good example I know is the OTTD-project, they have a site which logs what the devs are doing and there's a list what will be done in the 'near' future.

No, all people aren't so smart you could think. It's been proven around here many times.

People are less smart than you hope they aren't.