He had a 77 point lead. Red Bull logic is stupid. :/ He would need to lose the equivalent of a little more than 3 DNF's while the nearest rival wins all 3 of those races. -_- With the number of races left and the lead he's got I really don't see how he could lose it.
Well, as Christian Horner puts it, it is a team result, and they don't want to risk those valuable team points. While I agree, Webber and Vettel could have easily switched spots safely like you said. Both would end with podiums, and both would further secure their 1-2 in the points.
Even if they had failed, RBR has such a big lead that one race isn't going to end everything.
On the other hand, they could feel that Vettel had earned his 2nd place since he had been in the top 2 all race long. However my logic is a bit different. You could lead every lap but the last one, doesn't mean you won the race.
/bed.
Even if they had failed, RBR has such a big lead that one race isn't going to end everything.
On the other hand, they could feel that Vettel had earned his 2nd place since he had been in the top 2 all race long. However my logic is a bit different. You could lead every lap but the last one, doesn't mean you won the race.
/bed.
what is with all these bashing on Red Bull's logic and "team order"?
Ordering the drivers in the same team to hold position is nothing new in all forms of motorsport.
As for the argument on why didn't they let Webber past, it's obvious that Vettel were massively disadvantaged by that bad pit stop. Which meant Vettel has to stop early in the final stop to undercut Hamilton, and in doing so he had to push like mad, which wear the tyres down quicker. That's why Webber was faster towards the end, and would be hugely unfair if they'd let Webber pass Vettel.
Ordering the drivers in the same team to hold position is nothing new in all forms of motorsport.
As for the argument on why didn't they let Webber past, it's obvious that Vettel were massively disadvantaged by that bad pit stop. Which meant Vettel has to stop early in the final stop to undercut Hamilton, and in doing so he had to push like mad, which wear the tyres down quicker. That's why Webber was faster towards the end, and would be hugely unfair if they'd let Webber pass Vettel.
What did I say that implied anything about hate? I agreed with you about the rattling part. I merely said that it wasn't a good thing they concentrated on winning eachothers. Had they worked together one of them would've won the championship and that's the goal if you have the best car. Isn't it?
I believe that without Alonso as a teammate in Mclaren Hamilton would've won the championship and that without Hamilton as a teammate in Mclaren Alonso would've won the championship. They both failed because they concentrated on each others and didn't co-operate. That's the same thing I believe will be likely to happen with Vettel if Hamilton moves to RBR. 2 extremely fast drivers in the same team is rarely a good thing if you are fighting for the championship and rattling the other one's cage doesn't mean anything if you don't win the championship with the best car. Hamilton's goal is to win championships so he probably shouldn't go to Red Bull considering how he couldn't co-operate with Alonso
If you disagree with me you're free to do so but please explain your view. Saying that I hate Hamilton without even backing up that claim or showing where I'm wrong just proves that you don't have anything more to offer to this conversation and rather try to undermine everyone who thinks differently than you.
The fact of the matter is, Hamilton was trying to beat everyone in F1 then, Alonso was just focused on Hamilton. I don't think Lewis would've won the 07 WDC, I think someone else would have taken it if Kimi didn't (talking from asif Alonso was never his teammate from the beginning of the season of course).
Also it was Hamiltons first season in F1, nobody expected him to win the WDC, just a handful of races, so him rattling Alonso like he did was pivotal, and important for his career IMO.
But fair crack, you explained your reasons, just previously in another thread, I just get this vibe from you that you'd rather Hamilton wasn't in F1 and rather him play Basketball or run for 100m.
I think Hamilton can handle competetion in the same ride, Button has been quite close to him and there relationship has been very healthy, i think it more or less comes down to Alonso wanting 1st driver status where ever he goes, and having a tantrum when he doesn't get it.
Hamilton would work at Redbull but then agian Webber has been at RBR since Newey arrived yet he still gets treated 2nd rate even though its argubly equal, the thing is Hamilton is a much more complete driver then Vettel imo even if he might be slower(which is yet to be proven but we can see)either way if it comes down to a head to head battle Hamilton should be able to take him.
Hamilton would work at Redbull but then agian Webber has been at RBR since Newey arrived yet he still gets treated 2nd rate even though its argubly equal, the thing is Hamilton is a much more complete driver then Vettel imo even if he might be slower(which is yet to be proven but we can see)either way if it comes down to a head to head battle Hamilton should be able to take him.
whether Hamilton will win over Vettel in the same car depends entirely on whether it is his day to screw up something. 
Hamilton has the distinct advantage of knowing he can beat a WDC in the same car. He's done it twice already. Vettel only knows he can beat Webber and Bourdais.
If he was really under their control he'd answer "how high"
Tough luck for Vettel, his team screwed up his race. It would still be fair to let Webber through since his race went a little better and at that point he was faster. And like I said, if they let Webber through they're also making sure they get a 1-2 in the WDC as well whereas letting Vettel in front simply increases the massive advantage Vettel already has. I don't see the logic in what Red Bull did.
If Vettel wins the WDC by a point you will.
I don't see what the problem is, really. Complain about the change of rules. The FIA look totally idiotic for changing the rules (basically) on the back of a certain team breaching them last year, but since they have changed them, don't complain that a team is abiding by them.
That's not gonna happen sinbad. :P Last year it was close because of a much smaller gap at this point between Alonso and Vettel.
I agree.
Why did they use team orders to prevent Webber from trying to pass?
Turkey 2010
Turkey 2010
If Vettel was told to let Webber through, it wouldn't end up the way it did in Turkey.
Redbull don't want Hamilton. Obviously he would be fighting for the championship and they don't want two equal drivers fighting as long as they have Seb.
I take my hat off to McLaren for letting their two world champion's race because Ferrari and Red Bull certainly wouldn't.
I take my hat off to McLaren for letting their two world champion's race because Ferrari and Red Bull certainly wouldn't.
It's not like Webber's championship is written just yet, he's 2nd in the drivers championship!
No offense to Webber, as I have actually enjoyed him for as long as I can remember, but I think I can safely say he won't be finishing first in the driver's championship.
He has 60% of Vettel's points at pretty much midway through the season. Either Vettel needs massive fails, or Webber has to win every race. I don't see either of those two things happening.
Alonso, Button, and Hamilton have a shot because their teams will allow them to be aggressive. Webber won't be able to do the same, because his "team" points are apparantly more important...
It doesn't matter in which order they finish for 2nd and 3rd, they still bring the same amount of points to their team. Of course, that's in case they race cleanly with each other making absolutely no contact, which is very welcome with fighting drivers from other teams as well. Obviously Webber knew this according to Autosport!
2nd-3rd place finishes isn't going to cut it, not if he wants to win the championship. That's the point I was making.
Surely Seb letting Webber through would be just as bad as what happened?
@djfatrod: Do you not think that Mclaren would do the exact same thing if Lewis was leading the championship comfortably, and they were both about to finish on the podium at their home grand prix? Of course they would. The rules change positively encourages it now. Before, if they fought and crashed, it could all be put at the feet of the drivers, but now people would be asking why the manager hasn't told them to be sensible, so responsibility is much more with him.
@djfatrod: Do you not think that Mclaren would do the exact same thing if Lewis was leading the championship comfortably, and they were both about to finish on the podium at their home grand prix? Of course they would. The rules change positively encourages it now. Before, if they fought and crashed, it could all be put at the feet of the drivers, but now people would be asking why the manager hasn't told them to be sensible, so responsibility is much more with him.
If you don't like team orders, even when sensibly applied, don't watch team sports...
Vettel has such an advantage now that he could finnish every race in order Alonso, Webber, Vettel and still win the champs and even if he didn't have that amount of points lead, why not let them race it out, they have grown a lot since Turkey 2010 and I think they have shown that in this race, since they raced each other despite team orders.
So why to draw all the controversy on yourself when you know you defended the policy of no team orders and driver equality for at least good past year and when it's obvious they wouldn't crash it out? It's as if they didn't trust their drivers and I wonder if they can't trust them, who else can, but sure that's not the reason, that's just an impression.
EDIT: We seam to forget that it was Webber chasing this time, unlike Turkey 2010.
Anyone explain why the DRS zone wasn't on the Hangar straight? I presumed this would have been the best place.
Gearing may have been a issue? Also the closing speed into Stowe would be crazy.
They probably didn't want to make the overtakes too easy.
In regard to team orders. It's legal, and RBR were right in calling off the battle. I don't like watching it, but winning WDC is their #1 priority.
They probably didn't want to make the overtakes too easy.
In regard to team orders. It's legal, and RBR were right in calling off the battle. I don't like watching it, but winning WDC is their #1 priority.
2011 Formula 1 Grand Prix of Great Britain
(161 posts, started )
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