I *don't* think banning people from the forum for inane posts is a good way forward, for any period of time. I don't know if the suggestion is reactive or not, but there's definitely a difference between malicious spam and spam born of ignorance or laziness.

Lazy spam (can't be arsed to read the thread before posting) becomes malicious if it's repeated by someone whose posts have been previously removed for the same reason. Pruning irrelevent posts is, I feel, the way forward, and can be handled by a thread moderator charged with the task of managing it appropriately.

Reading BACK through the test patch thread, I can see how we got to where we're at now. A post or two after "read the thread before posting" came "I haven't read the thread, but [irrelevent dumb question/suggestion]". My jaw dropped, and Scawen lost his rag.

Losing public test patches would be a terrible shame. It's a great vehicle to make strides forward with the sim, and from my own perspective, perpetuates absolutely the belief that I AM a part of the big thing they call LFS. Perhaps that's the problem, that the accessibility of Scawen in a thread like that encourages me/us to think that I/we can get more involved than I/we actually can (nods to Tristan's post regarding the drive behind development). We all have ideas.. some of them are good, and some not so good, but all of those of us who propose changes *believe* our ideas are good. The nature of the beast they call human nature.

By the way, Scawen, the light in the fridge doesn't work. Thought you'd want to know

Quote from Chris_Kerry :

I think you are missing what I'm trying to say. If we sticky the "to-do" list people have mentioned, people are still likely not to read it and post repeated rubbish in the threads anyway!

Yes, but it wouldn't get mixed with the actual plans, because those would be in a seperate and closed thread.
It would be really nice to see the plans this way, and the completed features crossed out (oh, forum doesn't have strikethrough) Anyway, you get the idea.

No, you can not expect people to remember everything from the first post. And I don't think they are expected to.

When a new patch is released I quickly read the first post, mainly what's been added to the patch. I download it, and check it out. If I encounter something strange, weird, bad or whatever I think might be a bug, THEN I check the first post more thoroughly to see if it's a known issue. After that I check the rest of the thread for comments about possible workarounds, announced future fixes, etc.

So it doesn't really have anything to do with having to remember everything, it's all about using common sense and being a bit pro-active in finding a solution.

Quote :

You are testing a TEST patch. The post where you got the link has a warning in big bold letters [etc etc etc... *snip* - Becky]

Let me put it another way, and repeat myself in the process, I was one of the ones who missed the controller input thing. When I went to the patch thread it was already several pages long.

I read the announcement itself in detail, then skim-read almost all of it. Result: Information overload, by the time I got to the end i'd long forgotten Scawen's key points and the file had downloaded, I fired it up and noticed by bindings where wrong, not a problem I thought - I remade them. However the particular binding in question regarding the clutch I didn't even know was in the game, I hadn't understood references to it in the thread, and I didn't recognise the problem when I saw it because the way the issue manifested was very clearly "bugged" (because even if my clutch control was wrong a car would not have done that). I therefore failed to put 2+2 together.

Then, because it was a TEST patch as you so clearly point out, I assumed it was a compatability issue of some kind so I made a quick post about it before starting to download the full version and trying it on a vanilla install. I made the post to clarify if Scawen wanted more info before I zapped my old install. As it happens I got an answer and the problem was solved.

So that's how it happened.

Now let's look at it from another perspective. Scawen works for me, I pay him money, i'm not his beta tester i'm his customer.

I myself release software as some of you know, not nearly in the same league when it comes to games, although a few of the apps i've worked on over the years are major league stuff - but that's beside the point - what i'm saying is when I release software I run several assumptions:

A) The customer will not read the documentation.
B) The customer will fire it up, see if it works, and if it doesnt throw it away
C) The customer will not read ANY documentation, no matter how much you force the issue.

Computers & software should just work, if it doesnt, it's not the users fault.

I for one expect to do some configuration on a new game, infact I usually goto options before start game - but i'm a techie - however this was an already installed game ... I missed it, I overlooked a patch change and made an error.

But for somebody I pay to turn around and bitch back? That's taking the bloody piss, frankly. It's out right insulting.

He doesn't work for you, and if you think that analogy is in anyway correct then you are horribly mistaken.

Scawen makes a sim. He charges us for a) the use of it and b) to fund further improvements. You have zero rights to any improvements you want. You paid your money because you liked what you saw, and liked what is planned, not because you have any control.

Scawen is not a normal developer, and neither is Victor and Eric. They are doing something more for the love of it than the money. If they get tired of us, or want to impose bans for ignorant behaviour then that is their perogative. If you don't like it you don't have to be here. Simple.

Quote from Becky Rose :

But for somebody I pay to turn around and bitch back? That's taking the bloody piss, frankly. It's out right insulting.

Now steady on there. I never targeted anything at you in particular, Becky.

You were in the early stages of something that got more and more out of hand. I kept writing again and again for people to please take care. more and more people just kept coming back with ridiculous posts, that defied any knowledge of forum etiquette or just plain manners.

Now you are saying I am taking the piss, because I have expressed frustration after being continually wound up over a long period?

And you don't pay me, please don't say that - you are not my employer. You have bought a license. You have not bought me and all my actions from now until the future. This isn't about money, it's about people being polite. Anyone can make mistakes. There was a serious problem going on in that thread and finally it took its toll.

Quote from Becky Rose :

...when I release software I run several assumptions:

A) The customer will not read the documentation.
B) The customer will fire it up, see if it works, and if it doesnt throw it away
C) The customer will not read ANY documentation, no matter how much you force the issue.

I'm quite sure that most developers think that way, but in this case it is a TEST patch, and that's what TEST versions are for, debugging, so I think that your analogy is not right for the situation.

Well, If your going to ban people for re-posting existing things, fair enough.
But I think 6 months and 3 months are a bit too far.

1) I'd propose 1 month ban for those who make a question, when on the first post in the thread it clearly says the solution to your problem

2) If someone asks a question in a thread, that has been asked many times before, then only ban for 2 weeks.

Scawen and all the others work tirelessly to bring out improvements to make the game better.

Yes, in response to his "In the shop" example, I agree. I would get pissed off if someone keeps telling me somehing I allready know, It happens reguallry IRL.
However, I would try to keep a cool face, especially if i was working in a large store, or a very important and well known store for the sake of cutom, and not wanting people to go out thinking, "Hes a bit of a stress".

In response to Beckys post about people reading documentation, I fully agrree. If I buy a piece of software, its very rare i read doucmentaion, most of the time i prefer to find out problems or get used to the program by using it. I never read the readme for LFS, for example.

But, with this relating to a forum, as said billions of times before, there is a search function, and if there is a thread with many posts, then people should be able to skim read.
Read the first few lines of a given post, and then use their common sense to think if what so-and-so is saying is of relation to their question. if not, read on, If yes, think about whether it is worth posting. If not worth posting, Dont bother. If no-one has asked a question as to what your particualr problem is then by all means, post ahead. But repeatedly saying "OMFG My controller buttons are all bad" or something and posting about it is pure babyness. When I put U11 on, my controls were all bad, and the clutch wouldnt go off.
I stopped, and thought. I carefully looked through the controls menu, and the one with gearbox+clutch settings, and noticed the clutch was on "axis", so change to button, and my controls wernt as before. You dont need people to tell you how to change controls, and it is not a matter worth posting about. All you do is click on the control and press your button. I mean, how dumb have you got to be to think "My controls arnt as before, Im too much of a #### to look through myself, I know! I will post on teh forumzz and 1'll be r0xzzzz"

I don't read manuals either. Until I have a problem, and then I try my hardest to work out the solution on my own, by reading manuals and readmes, looking at wikis is appropriate, and then reading forums for relevent help. If I can't find it then, I'll ask in game or on MSN.

Only then if I can't find it will I consider making the thread of my own or adding to someone elses.

Unfortunately more and more stupid people are born each day, and they have no concept of common sense. Within seconds of LFS saying "can't find XFG_default.jpg" they are posting 'why is LFS so crap'. It's not crap, it's your brain is crap because you tried to run it in a zip file matey.

People like that should NOT be banned. They should be shot. Ideally with something blunt, like a small car.

Quote from tristancliffe :

People like that should NOT be banned. They should be shot. Ideally with something blunt, like a small car.

No. They should be attacked by badgers with razor blades strapped on them.

And we go to the "devs own me sumthing" stuff again, omg. Does someone remember the brazilians? Yes, no need for all that shit again. You bought a license, you have the right to use the program, the license agreement you accept is very simple and doesnt say you could use devs as your slaves.

And I think few month bans are bit too much, ok, if its extreme stypidy and ignorance but imagine doing a silly error and notice you just got banned for 3 months...

edit. search for word badger...uuuh thats nasty! You learn everything new here every day :P

Quote :

And you don't pay me

I never said you where my whipping boy, just that i'm the customer.

As for the rest, it's probably *me* taking *you* out of context, because i'm not fully conversant with the history of that thread.

Quote from Becky Rose :

Computers & software should just work, if it doesnt, it's not the users fault.

LFS 'just works' more than any other program I've used. And (1) It's not a finished program, we have been told this, (2) these are test patches not final patches, as is mentioned in the thread title (3) having to reconfigure your controller isn't exactly the end of the world!

Quote from Becky Rose :

i'm not his beta tester

When you choose to download a test patch, I would say you are taking that role on. If you are not happy with that, perhaps you should wait until there is a final patch not a test patch. This is how I see it at least...

Well to say I was taken aback by Becky's response is an understatement. I think it was totally inappropriate and it even forced Scawen into a reply. By downloading and using the TEST patch you automatically become the beta tester as Scawen makes it clear you DO NOT have to download the patch. If you dont want to beta test then wait until the patch has been fully tested and released.

I definitely agree with tristancliffes earlier post and IMO it was pretty obvious about the controller resets.

Why not extend it further and only let people post with blonde hair and blue eyes

Quote from ebola :

with blonde hair and blue eyes

Omg, Then everyone will be banned !!!!!!

I have blonde(-ish, gold blond ) hair and blue eyes

I would hate to see public test patches disappear.

It's part of what makes LFS what it is, it's like a little mini-Christmas whenever a patch is released, at least to me. It's fun to "participate" in the development process in that regard.

Even if there is a private section for "official" patch testers, there's no reason not to release it to the public. Yes, it will generate threads, but Scawen can just ignore the those and focus on the private testing area. If Joe Public can't be bothered to read the first post, then maybe he will be forced to in that case - or be helped by the other Joe Publics. Whatever. It would just dampen my happy-fun-times if the test patches ceased altogether, especially since it's "test patch season" right now after bit of a wait (comparatively).

Don't let the few spoil it for the many!

Don't worry. Something went a bit wrong here and believe me I don't ever want to get in any position of being irritated or angered. It's not anyone's fault in particular, anyway.

I think something good can come out if it, and that is, a slightly different way of doing things while still having public test patches. I can't say what just yet until it's finalised but you'll know soon.

The idea is it will just be calmer and easier to stay on top of things. I'm confident we won't lose anything.

And there won't need to be 6 and 3 months bans, I'm sure. Don't worry I have calmed down a lot since saying that.

I wouldn't like to see public beta testing disappear either, but I think a middle ground is possible. If Scawen starts a patch thread and it starts getting cluttered with spam, I don't see why he or any other mod shouldn't be able to snip out anything which is irrelevant or wasting space. It's the official forum for a sim of his (and Eric's and Victor's) creation and it's not a democracy, nor is it a toilet wall where anyone with a marker and half a brain can write any old garbage they choose.

Why should the developer of a game have no say in what goes on in the threads he starts to test patches for his game on his forum? Scawen doesn't start many threads and I think people should be more respectful of the close relationship he has with the community. There aren't many games I can think of where the devs frequently talk directly with the community (contemplate the current and baffling nK scenario as a comparison) this way and I think they deserve some respect for that.

C'mon guys - Scawen's name is in RED. That should mean SOMETHING, right?

I agree now its out in the open and been discussed it can only be a positive thing and as LFS evolves then its patch testing evolves with it. There will always be morons around but I'm pretty sure this well established community can overcome them. There will also be new LFS'ers who have alot to offer the community and I'm sure they will fit in very nicely.

Now lets move on and help with goddam development

Well, I was the first in this thread and I want to be the last;


MODERATORS PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD, I think that all is clear now

Quote from TRM.13 :

Well, I was the first in this thread and I want to be the last;


MODERATORS PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD, I think that all is clear now

No. You shall not be last.

In my oppinion it has just gotten a bit out of control. Simply to say..
never before has a test patch gone this far and it was bound to happen once. The thread took too much pages..and people just get over excited. You have to understand that when going to download a test patch you know in the back of your head that something might not work as it should be.
Maybe some kind of agreement needs to be clicked in the game in big Bold lettertype that you have installed a test patch.

A public test patch means in most cases that 1 of the devs would like to have a more detailed opppinion of a new feature that could share more light then only his steady beta test team.
And simply because it became a: Argh..now happens this and now happened that thread over and over again it was closed..because there was no ending to it.

In my vision victor should create a new subforum called "Public Beta Testing".
The devs control the input on that forum. Because all they only need are detailed information and not the: AWESOME!!! messages.

I can understand most of you are always looking forward in improvements in the game. But also be a good part of it if you know what I mean. A forum is to contribute to the community as a whole. If someone is in a need of help.. we help him/her.
And so should we help the devs.

Now I already see people appoligising to eachother. And that should not even be a issue at all. We all want the same right? The best online simulator in the world

Peace...

If you close this thread, the light comes on. Someone put up a sign.

Hi Sry did I get here too late.

Damn missed the sign that says READ THE DAMN THREAD IDIOT.

I had to read the whole damn thread and was just about to shout across the forum 'someone forgot to put up the sign'

And I hear...

HEY mate some bloke put a sign up here, IT says READ THE THREAD IDIOT.

Ah well at least we is all visiting the fridge.

That Scawen still does just tells me hes still thirsty.