The only problem with the 4th is that it's not really dark enough to fully appreciate the fireworks
Our night of fireworks is in November (bonfire night, when we burn an efigy of a guy called Guy Fawkes, who we punish every year for failing to blow up Parliament). It's dark enough, alright, but it's just too damn cold.
Jayhawk, I agree, the new one's much nicer! Any time you want a new one, give us the nod and the Brits'll be there to help get things started
Let's not go political. The 4th is a fabulous day of celebration. I hope yours has been a really good one. From me and mine, to you and all of yours, happy birthday USA
And did you know that American actually sent an invasion force to Britain. Only one ship made it and landed at Dartmouth or something like that. Needless to say they wern't particularily succesful.
Met my American mate yesterday and we are still the best of friends. Even he wasn't particularily bothered about I.D. We've trained him well. In fact he kinda said to me what I said at the start (Without prompting I hasten to add) that it was a bit sucky to shout out that America is celebrating it's independance from a country that is now it's partner in crime whilst it's holding most of the rest of the world to ransom by fair means of foul. (He's at law school atm so he's a bit up on his foriegn policy.) I think there is alot of Irony in this whole thing somewhere.
I'm not going to rain on your parade, have your celebration. Chink your glasses, throw some firecrackers, drink your beer. Just don't shout it out to the rest of the world. Because the rest of the world doesn't need any more escuses to hate america.
I figure I'm allowed to say stuff again as it's now July 5th and nobody really got on the celebration thing.
im sure lots of people heard about lenox square? (probably only americans heard of it); the largest fireworks show in Atlanta... i was there lol, it absolutely stunk, the darkest cloud i have ever seen came overtop and everyone just started heading towards their cars, it was pretty sweet.. onfortunate for my friend and i, the police locked up the parking deck for 45 minutes for some unkown reason after it started raining and lightning and everything (not sure if they were setting up the road blocks and stuff or what); but finally at about 10:30 they started shooting off fireworks so we got to see like the last 5 minutes of the show.. it was dope
lol it took us an hour and a half just to get home.. 45 minutes of that we were sitting within a quarter mile from the time we left.. traffic was going nowhere lol
My story: I got some 25 cent burgers. I think they were grilled for about a minute, so they were pretty raw. Also the hotdogs had like a diameter of 2 inches. The fireworks were still good, cause it was clear in New Jersey.
Ok, i think i've seen enough- this guy is a classic example. Here we are given one extreme presented under the premise that americans are imposing our political prowess in places where we shouldn't be, resulting in a "hate" felt by non-americans (and americans, mind you) that need not arise. However, his argument is given from the same position- one that is given in a place that is more than likely not welcomed, is given to change america's political stance, and more than likely will result in american's hating him.
Now here's the deal- i think it's easy to assume that he doesn't truly believe what he's saying because he's retaliating the very way he's offended...which i guess is normal, but as most of the world sees america, it's sort of "barbaric".
I'm not saying don't have a point of view, because it's important that you do. But when you hate america because they have proven they hate your foreign affair policy, it doesn't make it right....the same is true when america doesn't like certain middle east foreign affair policies by hi-jacking planes and destroying the world trade centers, and part of the pentagon. I guess it's important to realize the coin has two sides, and usually it falls one way or the other- it's very hard to get a coin to balance on its side.
By the way- remember that our country was mainly founded by europeans...only some 230 years ago. So we got the best- and worst- of all your governments...haha...and we're still trying to weed out the worst.
Happy 4th of July! Grace and peace to all of God's children in every kingdom!
I shall see if I can go through this bit by bit and make some sense of it . . .
You are. Sorry. Your administraion is.
No Middle east state has that on their foriegn aggender. Al Qaeda does, or at least did. But they are not a Middle east state.
Nope. I tried. Sorry. Still can't get it.
Honestly, I don't think I could have put it any simpler.
I don't see that it is irony at all. A very major reason our country was founded was based on the principle that we are able exercise freedom of religion...which is right along the lines of the 4th of July...so if anything, it gives someone like me doubly the reason to be thankful. If you hate my sign off, is it appropriate to say that your problem is not with america, but with the fact that america has no problems with me having faith in Jesus Christ? (The reason I bring that up, is because it seems you already know) I'm very interested, so please don't get offended.
Mate. Don't worry. I won't get offended. I rather enjoy a discussion with a little more substance. As I hope that you will not take my comments as a malicious attack in any way. These are my views and my views alone, you are more than welcome to rip them apart.
But I am still struggling somewhat to get your jist in the matter. Are you . . . Is it that . . . . Should I . . . Nope, sorry. I really can't get your meanings.
AS regards to your sign off. I have no problem with it as a decleration of your belief I myself are from a very religious background. Although independance day is not a religious celebration, its a political statement. Celebrating the fact that you triumphed against the oppressor, that you sunk their ships, burnt thier buildings and murdered the infidel in their thousands (As did we, we have no moral high ground here. I do, but then I wasn't there and I always claim the moral high ground) Does all that sound familiar?
I'm not at all interested in contributing to the thread, if it's going to go this way, but I thought I'd point out a small but glaring error.
Actually, it was really about not being FORCED to believe in Christ, or to do so in any particularly dictated fashion. To relay historical context, you really have to invert your statement. There aren't many states in the world these days where you're either forced to or prevented from your pursuit of a religious doctrine, and I suspect even less of those that would frequent these forums.
Funnybear, there was no need to hijack the thread for a political statement. Especially one about July 4th. The phrase "now look what you've done" springs irresistibly to mind.
Hey. I did resist yesterday after I overstepped the mark. And appologised for it.
But now. S'ok.
Why is everyone so anti political or even anti arguement. Mayeb I am making a political statement. But along with a constructive arguement. I'm not lowering the tone here, or trying to be too funny or insulting. I am giving an alternative viewpoint. Prehaps here was not the place, but I'd rather tac one in here than start a whole 'anti' 4th of july thread. I'd get complelty flamed for that.
This is a Forum and the very reason d'etre of a Forum is to discuss, disagree and debate.
I mean. Would you like me to start a new thread? 'A further discussion on the true meaning of Independance Day - Can Will Smith really fly a space ship?'
Or should it stay nicely contained in here?
And another thing.
You obviously are interested in contributing to the thread otherwise you wouldn't have . . . contributed.
Gotta love philosophy And it's important to know that I ask a lot of questions in my answers because I want you to be able to do the same for me...and to let you know i'm not preaching from a "soap box" (a term we have adopted here declaring that a speech or presentation that is being given is the end-all of discussion).
Hmmm...well, let's see if this helps. I'm going to go off your moral "high ground" for this one. Perhaps this will sum it all up- is it truly moral high ground for someone who has been a victim of an act or attitude of hate to respond with an act or attitude of hate? I would say no, because in their mind- the act has already been completed.
Which now has me confused on your position. Earlier it sounded like you hated america, which is not taking the moral high ground.
I honor your beliefs, and you probably understood that I already presumed your faith as well. The age-old war, is it not?
Independence day is not a religious celebration, indeed. But only because the spirit of the holiday, the reasons for america's independence and original colonization of america have all been lost over time....moving in favor of a secular nation founded upon protestant christian theology.
You want to know something that should inspire hate? I'll tell you- Living in the middle east, you more than likely have an umbrella of Islam over your head that persecutes Christian missionaries...giving you freedom and peace of mind to practice your religion however you please. America, founded as a Christian country which has separated church from state, and is slowly eliminating the freedom of religion from every context of state- while at the same time allowing other religions to practice. So as a Christian, I am called to go into the nations that despise Christianity and even in my own country which is showing to eliminate Christianity to preach the message. Would it be appropriate for me to hate my position because i'm jealous of the Islam umbrella in the middle east? Maybe, but it would be wrong...like you said, take the moral high road
I understand your concern, but have you read the american constitution? Our declaration of independence? Our pledge of allegiance? It screams Christianity.
By the way- about "being FORCED to believe in Christ"...you're standing at the threshold of a theological discussion you have no part of wanting to take in.
By saying being forced, I was rather meaning being indoctrinated. I'd hoped to say it succinctly without having to reiterate.
No, Americans don't enjoy religious freedom. Depending on whereabouts in the country you are, you can find every type of objector, from those in the South who would have everyone forced to live and breathe a Christian way (the bible-belters) to the polygamists in Utah, who would have everyone else just leave them alone to do their thing.
Yes, I've read the constitution. I've read and studied the declaration of independence. Quite extensively, actually. My children pledge their allegiance to the flag of the United States every morning at school, in fact. I helped them learn it by heart. I also helped them learn all verses of the American National Anthem, My Country 'Tis Of Thee (same tune as God Save The King/Queen), and many others...
I'll stop there, and recommend strongly that you don't dare suggest that you must be right, because I don't know what I'm talking about. Just don't.
@hpis; thats why the founders of america LEFT england in the first place! because king henry (was it the eighth?) started forming anglican and there was some marriage law that a ton of people hated and some other smaller things
so the only reason why america is christianly based is because of the founding fathers, not because the government said so
if the king of england never made that decision, we would probably still be believing we live on a flat world and the sun goes arond us
A couple of points I'd thought I would share with group.
Hp. I feel that you feel you have religious freedom because you are a christian in a christian nation. (A particularily fundimentally puritanical one because it's founding fathers where . . . oh lookee here, fundimentally puritanical.) Prehaps if you where a hindu, jew or 'gasp', god forbid a Muslim then prehaps you might be viewing America's religious freedom with slightly different eyes.
If a constition or the bill of rights or whatever you use 'screams out chrisianity' then surely you do not live in a state that operates religious freedom. For gods sake man, you havn't even had a black president yet. And it's more likely you will have a woman before a black gets into power. If you did have religious freedom then there would be no religious overtones to any of your constitution. No swearing unto god, no placing your hand on the bible, no sabbath day, no saints days, no teaching ID in schools (Which is, quite frankly, appalling), no churchs, sunday schools, bible classes, coffee mornings, crosses, nuns, monks, catherdrals or convent schools. There would be no mosks, turbans, beards, kosha meat, circumsision, silly little caps, Ji had's, vestal virgins (Or raisins, depending on how your translating it), martardom. No anti abortion, no anti sexual precautions. No strange men in frocks throwing incense around the place.
If you didn't have any of that, then. And only then would you live in a state completly free from religion. Now that would be religious freedom.
But you don't. You live in a Christian country (Could you remind you president please. He seems to have lost his way a bit. He's kinda lingering in the valley of the shadow of death for a bit too long. You tell him and I'll tell our Prime minister. He's another supposed bible basher. But then his judgement rests with god. Which is fare enough but does that give him the excuse to **** everything else up for the rest of us?). England is a christian country. It's laws are based on the 10 commandments. Iraq is Muslim. And yet they (before the wars at least) had a christian community that in percentage terms out wieghed out Muslim community. The very essense of the Islamic faith is of understanding, acceptance and peace. It's us christians that seem to have the biggest problems when it comes to the teachings of Jesus or Mohammid, take your pick.
The middle East is a ****ed up as it is because we have been raping and pillaging them for millenia and it doesn't look to be stopping any time soon.
Hp, you seem to be under the impression that the Middle East is a very bad place to be. Well the Middle East is a very big place for a start and most of the problems are coming from us at the moment.
The Islam umbrella does not hate christianty. In fact Islam and christianity can, have done and do sit very comfortable together with a lot of familiar precepts and teachings that each side would find similarities with. The feeling I get is that Islam feels it has been under attack for many years by the christians. And quite rightly so. I am not saying it's right but I am possible saying that the attack on 9/11 and 7/7 where justified. The nation of islam have no other ways of fighting back for what they see as encrouchment and degrading of their nationality and countries. We, as chirstians, have made sure they have no other ways of fighting back.
But as i have mentioned before. I am not and would not like to be in a position of power and would probable be seeing things from a very different angle if I was.
I live by my own personal faith with my own personal God. My god is not the same as your god and neither is my faith the same as your faith. All I can do as a country boy from Oxfordshire is live the best I can with the means I have. Which ain't a hell of a lot I can tell you.
edit - I have just reread my 9/11, 7/7 'justified' comment. I don't wnat anyone to think that I find the actions of those few desperate men at all commendable. It was wrong, very wrong. And I might revisit my prhasing of that comment in a bit once I've had a think about what I 'm trying to say. But thinking about it, are their actions more justified than the actions of Bush and Blair. The killing of thousands upon thouasands of innocents in Iraq and Afghanistan. At least the desperate few had the guts die for their cause. I doubt if I will see Bush or Blair placing their lives on the line in quite the same way.
your founding fathers were absolutely not the ones that understood that world was approximatively spherical and sun was the in the center of the solar system.
So, if they never made that decision, surely these 2 things would not be different from today.
