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Quote from DeadWolfBones :...except that the FIA can and will take points away from drivers for incidents like that (cf. Schumacher).

1997 was a very special situation. It wasn't(and never looked like, the available shots absolutely left no shadow of a doubt, unlike, for instance, Adelaide 1994.) a defensive move going over the limit, it was a plain attempt at turning into the other car, and causing as much damage as possible to it; he never had the opportunity to make it look like a racing incident, like for instance Adelaide 1994. It was the first time in 3 years Schumacher pulled a dirty trick to be champion, and most observers blamed the FIA for taking no action in 1994, so, failing to do so 2 times in 3 years definitely would've looked bad.

Furthermore, the penalty did not affect the outcome of the championship. Villeneuve would've been champion anyway. And no one really cares about the runner-up spot, ask the average Joe F1 fan who was runner-up in 1997, I doubt he would answer correctly. However, the FIA doesn't like applying penalties that decide the championship a few weeks after the finish of the last race - it doesn't look good for the sport(cf 1990, 1994 and 2007). If Schumacher did manage to take Villeneuve out that day, it would've been rather -interresting- to see how the FIA would've reacted.

Last thing, may I point out that the marshalls(although championship disqualifications would be decided by the FIA's Great Council AFAIK) are usually much more permissive since last year. That's the way Todt wants to go - let the drivers police themselves.
Quote from gezmoor :So in your opinion if a driver is faster / more talented than another that gives him the right to drive how the hell he likes?? Nice well adjusted moral standards you have there.

Whether Massa is worse than Hamilton has absolutely nothing to do with the rights or wrongs of how Hamilton conducts himself on track..

Seriously..how old are you?


You can defend Hamilton as much as you like, but there is no denying the FACT that he has been involved in more collisions, (and that's ignoring the other non contact incidents), this year than most other drivers in the field have had thier ENTIRE CAREERS !! But I'm sure you'll twist that fact in to some paranoid delusion about how everyones out to get Hamilton.

Yes but irony of all ironies, the people who bring up and procrastinate over Hamiltons mistakes are of those who dislike(hate) him. The people who defend him through and through are obviously fans, and the people (like me) who can admit a mistake, but not demand a DT etc are the neutral ones).

But regarding Massa it's fact, he's poor, and he won't be driving a Ferrari next year, that's a fact. The way Massa drives is alot like the way Hamilton drives, with a lack-lustre effort.
Quote from tristancliffe :He clearly meant it maliciously. There is no way it can be interpreted as a camp 'oh, you cheeky monkey' context at all.

He said the comment with a twinkle in his eye, if he was gonna say something maliciously he would of called them talentless wankers or something less, or more brutal.

If you say to a child, 'o you little monkey' is that considered as abusing the child verbally? No, a monkey is a symbol of cheeky behaviour.
Quote from bunder9999 :they said that about hamilton a couple years ago.

So lets compare:

Hamilton

Year 1: Looses WDC by 1 point, (exactly the same points as his team mate despite being given all the benefits by Mclaren over him).
Year 2: Wins WDC by 1 point, (in what everyone accepts was the best car that year)
Year 3: 5th place - 46 points behind winner. (2nd/3rd fastest car?)
Year 4: 4th place - 16 points behind winner. (2nd/3rd fastest car?)
Year 5: currently 5th - currently 146 behind winner. (2nd/3rd fastest car?)

Vettel:

Year 1: 14th in a nothing car - team mate came 18th.
Year 2: 8th still in a nothing car - team mate came 17th.
Year 3: Looses WDC by 11 points - in a car that was only competitive for half a season.
Year 4: Wins WDC by 4 points, (in what everyone accepts was the best car that year).
Year 5: Walks the WDC, with 4 races to spare - (in what everyone accepts was the best car that year).

So they've both only ever won when in the fastest car, (has a WDC ever not been in the fastest car? err no), but Vettel has done it twice and done it easier. Hamilton has placed better on the years he hasn't won, but then he's never been in completely crap car.
2008:
Hamilton: Ferrari a faster car than mclaren "overall".
Vettel: Torro Rosso's car got faster and faster at the end of the season.
2009:
Hamilton: Mclarens car in the first half of the season was crap, but was one of the quickest in the 2nd half of the season, crushing Kovalainen.
Vettel: Issues with engine pretty much let him loose the championship, but they had the fastest car 2/3rds of the season.
2010: Vettel: Deserved.
Quote from BlueFlame :
If you say to a child, 'o you little monkey' is that considered as abusing the child verbally? No, a monkey is a symbol of cheeky behaviour.

Saying it to a child... but about grown-up men is the highest class of motorsport?? What does he think he is, the parent to all other drivers in the world?
Quote from JazzOn :Saying it to a child... but about grown-up men is the highest class of motorsport?? What does he think he is, the parent to all other drivers in the world?

Again taking things out of context. Basically, you're saying YOU'RE NEW BOY IN F1, YOU AREN'T ALLOWED TO MAKE JOKES!?

Fact of the matter is, his comments didn't rile any of the OTHER F1 drivers. THAT should be an indication of what's going on.
Ok, he was joking, but it sums up the attitude he's showing on track.
Quote from BlueFlame :But regarding Massa it's fact, he's poor, and he won't be driving a Ferrari next year, that's a fact.

He is under contract until the end of the 2012 season.

After that he'll almost certainly be gone.
Quote from Rappa Z :He is under contract until the end of the 2012 season.

After that he'll almost certainly be gone.

Contact doesn't mean shit.
Well, I don't think Ferrari's going to bother with paying off the rest of the contract just to get another number 2 driver. His job is to be slower than Alonso and he's pretty dam good at it.
Quote from BlueFlame :Yes but irony of all ironies, the people who bring up and procrastinate over Hamiltons mistakes are of those who dislike(hate) him. The people who defend him through and through are obviously fans, and the people (like me) who can admit a mistake, but not demand a DT etc are the neutral ones).

But regarding Massa it's fact, he's poor, and he won't be driving a Ferrari next year, that's a fact. The way Massa drives is alot like the way Hamilton drives, with a lack-lustre effort.

This is an interesting opinion. If Hamilton does something that is, according to the rules, worth a DT, the ones who are saying ''he deserved it'' are Hamilton haters and the ones saying ''he did cause a collision but don't punish him like you punish the others'' are neutral? (lol). If we expand this theory to all the other drivers in the field we'll find out that every person who follows F1 hates at least 90% of the drivers. Good theory you have
Quote from gezmoor :has a WDC ever not been in the fastest car? err no

Obviously it's difficult to say with absolute certainty what was the "fastest car" in a given season, but here are a few candidates for F1 world champions who weren't necessarily in the fastest car:

Kimi Raikkonen - 2007
Michael Schumacher - 2003
Ayrton Senna - 1991
Alain Prost - 1986
Alain Prost - 1983
Keke Rosberg - 1982
Jody Scheckter - 1979
James Hunt - 1976
Quote from amp88 :Obviously it's difficult to say with absolute certainty what was the "fastest car" in a given season, but here are a few candidates for F1 world champions who weren't necessarily in the fastest car:

Kimi Raikkonen - 2007
Michael Schumacher - 2003
Ayrton Senna - 1991
Alain Prost - 1986
Alain Prost - 1983
Keke Rosberg - 1982
Jody Scheckter - 1979
James Hunt - 1976



I might add Mika Häkkinen -99 as a candidate to your list since Ferrari's car was much more reliable than Mclaren's and if Schumacher had not injured himself he would've won the championship for sure.
Quote from Juzaa :

I might add Mika Häkkinen -99 as a candidate to your list since Ferrari's car was much more reliable than Mclaren's and if Schumacher had not injured himself he would've won the championship for sure.

It could be on the list too, but it's not as strong a case as some of the others on there.
#116 - CSF
1995.
Quote from BlueFlame :Although this comment from Hamilton riled me, I sat back and then understood he's talking as-if to say 'cheeky monkeys' which would insinuate he's talking about mid and rear pack opportunistic driving, which we can all relate to. He wasn't refering to the back pack drivers and teams as idiots or untalented. But because of how he entered F1 people took it out of context. Myself included, but then I thought, why would he say it maliciously? Maybe others should think like this too.

Not maliciously, dismissively.
Quote from amp88 :Obviously it's difficult to say with absolute certainty what was the "fastest car" in a given season, but here are a few candidates for F1 world champions who weren't necessarily in the fastest car:

Kimi Raikkonen - 2007
Michael Schumacher - 2003
Ayrton Senna - 1991
Alain Prost - 1986
Alain Prost - 1983
Keke Rosberg - 1982
Jody Scheckter - 1979
James Hunt - 1976

TBH i think in '94 and '95 the Williams was faster then the Benetton(imo it was the fastest car from 1991-1997).

Also i think Ferrari where faster then Mclaren in '08.
Quote from Juzaa :This is an interesting opinion. If Hamilton does something that is, according to the rules, worth a DT, the ones who are saying ''he deserved it'' are Hamilton haters and the ones saying ''he did cause a collision but don't punish him like you punish the others'' are neutral? (lol). If we expand this theory to all the other drivers in the field we'll find out that every person who follows F1 hates at least 90% of the drivers. Good theory you have

I thought the DT on Paul Di Resta at Monaco was harsh. So don't put me on a Hamilton wagon of the band variety.
What happened to Bruno in the first few laps? I didn't see any incident but after after the first pit stop he was like 20th or something?
Quote from amp88 :It could be on the list too, but it's not as strong a case as some of the others on there.

You're honestly saying Schekter wasn't driving the fastest car in '79. LOL Look at most of the fastest laps of that year. Although it WAS Villeneuve..

And you should add Alonso in '05 then the McLaren was a faster car.
Quote from BlueFlame :You're honestly saying Schekter wasn't driving the fastest car in '79. LOL Look at most of the fastest laps of that year. Although it WAS Villeneuve..

I belive he included Schekter because Williams dominated the second season half, once they totally mastered ground effect and got the reliability. Ligier was faster in the first 2 GPs too, but got caught quickly by Ferrari once the teams got back to Europe.

Anyway, Lauda also is a candidate IMO(1977).
You'd have to put Button on the list too, then, if you're looking at the season as a whole. Brawn were hanging on by the finger nails from about the 7th GP onwards, when RBR hit the front.
Quote from sinbad :You'd have to put Button on the list too, then, if you're looking at the season as a whole. Brawn were hanging on by the finger nails from about the 7th GP onwards, when RBR hit the front.

Hmm... Brawn were without competition for the first GPs. For the latter season RedBull had to compete with McLaren and Ferrari started coming on strong.

So looking at the season as a whole, the complete Brawn dominance for the first GPs held a greater value than RedBull dominance at the latter stage of the season. It's not just whether the car is fastest, it's WHEN the car is fastest and how much competition it has at that stage that matters.

Overall the Brawn was the best car because it was fast at the right time in the season.
Quote from Intrepid :Hmm... Brawn were without competition for the first GPs. For the latter season RedBull had to compete with McLaren and Ferrari started coming on strong.

So looking at the season as a whole, the complete Brawn dominance for the first GPs held a greater value than RedBull dominance at the latter stage of the season. It's not just whether the car is fastest, it's WHEN the car is fastest and how much competition it has at that stage that matters.

Overall the Brawn was the best car because it was fast at the right time in the season.

Debatable. Had Button not driven a great race in Brazil, and Vettel not cocked up a couple of times I don't think we could put the Redbull on the list, do you?

In my opinion a more experienced Vettel would have won the title, the car was most consistently in the position to score good points, whilst other teams had relatively bad patches.

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