Quote from al heeley :

Yes, this is clearly ridiculous! The trouble is, how could any elaborate set of rules and collision sensors detect the difference between a deliberate wrecker and a genuine error - which all of us will continue to make every now and then in the heat of the race. You could get yourself tied up in knots trying to get some system to detect the differences, IMO this approach is just not workable and would lead to a brand new set of complaints about unjustified penalties.

Yes totally agree...There is another thread related to this at the moment..

The CRC is developing a Theoretical Test and a pratical tests at this time, cant say much at the moment...

Using Keys is sometimes much more accurate for some tracks, the wider tracks with a wheel fair enough... But i have mostly been a keyboard racer, and not the fastest but I can hold it up with the leaders more often than not.

I think for the expereinced players it quite clear what makes a wreaker, therefore i dont think any kind of automotic detection system would work very well, I guess if it happens we will see how many complaints from normally good drivers who will be caught out with a slide or something and they will get the blame for "wreaking"....

When you think about it, A person who is there to wreak, it can be seen in most cases...

Quote from mkinnov8 :

WTF!!!

How is banning us keyboard drivers the answer???

Grow Up!

Nah, we should ban the Wheel users... They're idiots!
Ever notice when they wreck, they always say, "sorry, my foot slipped"?
Yeah right... then when they're getting beat, they always bail and use some lamer excuse about how their stuff keeps losing calibration.
Then again what should we expect from a person that spends over $100
on a Driving aid in attempt to have an advantage over a K/B and still can't
win by cheating?

And What about them Mouse users? Huh? Yeah great, now we let them race - who knows maybe we'll start getting weirdos that want to use a stylus and tablet!


Please.... I figure the guy is probably trolling and I guess I'm feeding him too, but I do get tired of people bashing K/B mouse users. Before LFS, I never played a racing sim before. So I used a mouse for like I dunno 4-5- months before taking the plunge and getting a wheel.
I think this game's play value increases by leaps and bounds with a wheel
and that K/b'ers and Mouse users and joy pad users should try to do everything short of armed robbery to get one. Oh well, They have their reasons for not getting one. And with all the problems associated with wheels, mainly logitech and those...pedals, can you really blame them for not getting one?

Seriously, I don't really think people should be hassled about what type
controller they use. Besides, if you hit the "n" key when online, you'll notice a lot of those wreckers are using wheels anyways

Personally, being in between jobs ATM, i play this game alot. From my own experience, the amount of wreckers has dropped considerably since the
release of Alpha. There's still quite a few people that screw up in the first turn, just now I don't see 15 minutes of restarts for a 5 minute race as much.

Personally I think the system that nascar 2003 had was nearly perfect, for every race completed at a type of track you earned points towards it, and you could go to 'high experiance' servers, and there was a LPI, which calculated how many laps on average you go between each incident, of course that is a bit unfair a times because the incident isnt always your fault, but it really taught me to just chill out and learn to have serious amounts of patients, and eventually I made it up to the high experiance levels and it made the experiance a ton better. This could be implimented in LFS with a little modification, where you have to earn a certain amount of credits for each car to be able to go to the servers that required it, but you could still use all the cars you wanted in the open servers, so you get the best of both worlds.

But beyond that, currently there are a lot of people getting into LFS for the first time, just like when S1 came out, so there are goning to be a much larger amount of incidents than the later days of S1, but it'll only get better guys, trust me, in the mean time have patients and be carefull out there, and try not to let things boil over to the point where its not fun anymore. I try to hang out for a lap or two and let everyone get plenty far enough apart that eventually my speed will overcome them and i'll finish in the same spot as I would if I plowed through them in the begining

I just bought S2 and a DFP wheel and have been racing online with the FOX, and although I was crashing into the walls more often than I wanted, I made sure to steer clear from others. I got many blue flags during my first races.

But after 5 days of racing 2 hours in the evening I'm able to stay with the leader in the same lap, without any crashing; The most dangerous part of every race is the start & 1st corner. I tend to stay behind and let the other fight for position through that first corner.

Quote from ajp71 :

I think the CRC is a good idea and would join it or similar if it didn't involve 5 million threads and posts to register for it.

If you take a look at the CRC website you will see things have changed, the application process is much easier now.

Please make sure you are aware of your facts before posting!!

driving in a wide arc is bad, because if there is any wreckage, it will all go to the outside, where u are. braking too early in T1 is bad, because people will go into the back of you, causing a wreck. i cant remember the last time i got wrecked at braking for T1, because i go for gaps and dont brake at a rediculously early point.

Quote from ayrton senna 87 :

driving in a wide arc is bad, because if there is any wreckage, it will all go to the outside, where u are. braking too early in T1 is bad, because people will go into the back of you, causing a wreck. i cant remember the last time i got wrecked at braking for T1, because i go for gaps and dont brake at a rediculously early point.

But last week you kept getting wrecked at T2 or 3 instead! :P

I also rarely have a problem at T1. It's about thinking, braking with the pack (but not tooo late), and being aware of cars and spaces around you.

What I tend to 'get involved with' is the result of other people's crashes. Most people are so desperate to continue racing that they spin to the inside, and stop in the middle of the track, right in front of me. If they let the car spin, kept it away from other racers, turned around and carried on, they'd lose less time, and receive/cause less damage.

But in LFS it seems people hate being passed due to a mistake, and will swerve across the track to block anyone, regardless of the closing speed/damage/state of tyres. It's frustrating, but there is little you can do other than look ahead, pay attention to the yellow flag messages (they pop up for a reason), and drive around the problem. You'll lose less time driving around the spinner than driving into him

lol tristan, i get the same thing, people stopping infront of me!

at T1 u cant have any tactics of leaving room or anything, u just have to go for it! some guy braking earlier and leaving room will be an obstruction, and cause other cars to swerve, taking out other cars or smash into the back of the slow guy causing a problem too.

some of the applicant CRC guys are the most dangerous drivers, and in real life would be put in a fence! they brake stupidly early to avoid hitting anyone, but cause a pile up behind them, and this is on just normal laps!

but deliberate non brakers cant really be avoided at starts, if u get hit, u get hit

Quote from ayrton senna 87 :

lol tristan, i get the same thing, people stopping infront of me!

at T1 u cant have any tactics of leaving room or anything, u just have to go for it! some guy braking earlier and leaving room will be an obstruction, and cause other cars to swerve, taking out other cars or smash into the back of the slow guy causing a problem too.

some of the applicant CRC guys are the most dangerous drivers, and in real life would be put in a fence! they brake stupidly early to avoid hitting anyone, but cause a pile up behind them, and this is on just normal laps!

but deliberate non brakers cant really be avoided at starts, if u get hit, u get hit

Oh please, this isn't professional racing, you can't expect everyone on a public server to be on that level.

What helped me a lot with "normal" accidents:
1. Spend a lot time watching to the sides and in the mirror.
Once you got a good feel for the brakes you only need your ears to brake and can keep your eyes on the other racers.
This also goes for real-life racing. A normal racer spends 60% of the time by looking into his mirrors, unless he is the unmortal god of racing, being 30 seconds in front of the second.
2. Expect attacks.
I know I'm not the fastest racer and others will propably try to brake later than me. They will usually try to take me over on the inside of the turn. That means their nose will hit my tail, spinning me around. But with a short view into the mirror I can see them and leave them their space until they realize that they aren't fast enough. Usually I can accelerate just as normal after their attempt, loosing nearly no time.
3. Concentrate on your enemy.
Don't look into the corner and try to manage it as good as possible, but look at the car closely in front of you and drive the corner as usual. That will propably save you the most time and give you more very exciting hunting-laps.

In general:
Most people don't realize that there is a difference between hotlapping and racing. In racing it isn't important who is faster. It is important who reaches the finish line first. With that in mind you can drive much safer and as a result reach better positions.

I am aware of the fact that most of you know this. But perhaps and only perhaps someone will think about it and will have more fun in LFS because of this. At least I have.

Vain

Quote from Stregone :

Oh please, this isn't professional racing, you can't expect everyone on a public server to be on that level.

oops, sorry!

Quote from Vain :

A normal racer spends 60% of his time looking by his mirrors...

that isnt true man, a racer may glance in his mirrors in a safe place e.g. on a straight at the same place every lap, but not that much, because if he is looking backwards, he isnt focussing on whats forwards, so he will be slow!

the key to being fast is being 'ahead of yourself', mentally driving a corner before u actually arrive, every corner, every lap, so u practise it in your sub-concious, which can process feedback many times faster than thinking about it.

As u can see im not the best at making my point but i hope some guys can see what i mean!

Quote from Stregone :

Oh please, this isn't professional racing, you can't expect everyone on a public server to be on that level.

If you play a realistic racing simulation like LFS, then what do you aim for? Are most people out for a sunday drive? I like to think that EVERYONE who plays LFS more than 2 to 3 hours a week has the mentality of "I want to be the best racer in every aspect ever". They take into account the difference in speeds at T1, so brake a bit later on the first lap. I like to think that they look ahead, see the car they're gonna lap in two laps time and begin to plan their lapping manouveur. I like to think that if and when they have an accident (and we ALL do cos we don't have the fear of injury) they drive before, during, and after in the most sensible manner.

I'm obviously wrong, judging not only by the post on this forum, and this thread, but also by the attitude of 'racers' online.

I think the vast majority of people couldn't care less if the tyre physics are subtley tweaked, because they lack the skill, patience or sensitivity to notice. There is a good chance that most people here would be equally satisfied (if not more) by GT4 Online.

That is where I differ. Okay, so we all like to have the odd mess about. Thats why many servers are short, arcadey sprint races of 5 laps. And it's also why Banger Racing server(s) exist. But when I play LFS seriously (i.e. most of the times I load it tbh) I play with the "how can I better myself" attitude. Not just in terms of raw pace, although in many ways that was my first inspiration. We all want to be quick, even if some won't admit it. But I like to improve my feel for setup changes. Learn what the car is doing. I try to improve my overtaking (NOT as simple as just barrelling into a corner 10mph quicker than your opponent). I try to improve my lapping (and being lapped, as skill is involved there too believe it or not).


Maybe over the years I've been deluded by the flight sim scene. The hardcore sims attract hardcore players (X-Plane, MS FS series to some extent etc), and having a 'lazy attitude' to them isn't approved of. I wish racing games had the same snobbishness to them, as it would make everyones lives better. LFS, Netkar, Racer etc would attract the hardcore drivers amonst us. We would all be out there with the same mindset, and therefore have much better, cleaner races. The less bothered would play mass-market titles like GT4, rFactor (yes I said it!), GTR (yup, same again I'm afraid. It's a mass market title designed to sell, not amaze you with simulation attention to detail).

I know that I will be flamed for this (especially the bit about rFactor), but it is my (strong) opinion. Perhaps if the vast majority of you bucked up your ideas a bit, and began to enjoy LFS for what it is, a driving SIMULATOR, then we'd all get along a lot better.

Just my 200 cents

Quote from mkinnov8 :

If you take a look at the CRC website you will see things have changed, the application process is much easier now.

Please make sure you are aware of your facts before posting!!

Yes, but unfortunately, many of us have been put off permanently by the
whole thing. As honorable as it is to try to give CRC it's initial 'color', a
40 years old hag can never be a 16 years old virgin again

What IS unfortunate is how some spend so much effort explaining how things
are 'wrong' or 'suck', yet spend no effort on suggesting better ways or at
least trying to pinpoint problem areas. Anyone can complain, it takes 1 finger,
a keyboard and a forum, oh yeah, and an internet connection.

The online problem has been one that has plagued LFS since it's beginning.
The down-side is that LFS's increased popularity has only enforced this.
This isn't an LFS-specific thing though, from my experience, most online
ANYTHINGs are like this. Blame bored teenagers with no parental guidance,
blame TV, heck you can even blame George W. Bush (he said he's taking
responsibility, the flood gates have opened ! Sorry for the pun.). Either
way, it is a reality of online gaming and needs a much broader approach
than finding LFS specific 'cures' imo.

From my experience in this community, i doubt the LFS devs would take
the 'nazi-elite' approach and punish or keep people out. Making sales is
much higher on their list than parenting some unknown troublemaker
Unless he starts annoying the devs personally, i doubt they'd turn on
a paying/potential customer. That's just my opinion though.

@tristan

there'S a huge difference between professional racers and amateur racers and i don't mean online, i mean real life.
there are tons of racing series, where amateurs with limited talents drive every weekend. i don't know the racing scene in the UK but in germany, there are such amateur and some mixed am/pro races somewhere on the circuits every weekend.

so not every racer is a pro in real life on real racetracks in real races, so you can't demand the whole community to drive as if they were pros.

telling the not so professional guys that they should rather start playing GT4 (i know you didn't exactly say THAT but that was the basic core of what you said) is in my eyes completely wrong. it's like telling all those amateur drivers on the nordschleife in the VLN cup or racing in the youngtimer trophy or wherever 'you lack in skills, stop racing in real life, practice online or whit an RC car or whatever'

just because people aren't fast and maybe overcautious it doesn't mean that they do not love racing, do not enjoy a SIMULATION and prefer it because of it being realistic or that they would be better off playing a game instead...

to be serious about something doesn't automatically mean to be good at something...

Quote from DasKlee :

@tristan

there'S a huge difference between professional racers and amateur racers and i don't mean online, i mean real life.
there are tons of racing series, where amateurs with limited talents drive every weekend. i don't know the racing scene in the UK but in germany, there are such amateur and some mixed am/pro races somewhere on the circuits every weekend.

so not every racer is a pro in real life on real racetracks in real races, so you can't demand the whole community to drive as if they were pros.

telling the not so professional guys that they should rather start playing GT4 (i know you didn't exactly say THAT but that was the basic core of what you said) is in my eyes completely wrong. it's like telling all those amateur drivers on the nordschleife in the VLN cup or racing in the youngtimer trophy or wherever 'you lack in skills, stop racing in real life, practice online or whit an RC car or whatever'

just because people aren't fast and maybe overcautious it doesn't mean that they do not love racing, do not enjoy a SIMULATION and prefer it because of it being realistic or that they would be better off playing a game instead...

to be serious about something doesn't automatically mean to be good at something...

Even the amateur races try to improve themselves. They are serious about their racing (or they wouldn't do it).

Speed has nothing to do with it. You can be a great racer and still be 4 seconds off the pace (you just race greatly with slower people).

What I meant was dedication. That's what we lack. People are blissfully unaware of the problems they cause by ambling around the track, not worried if they cause a pile up. If they cared, and actually thought about their racing and racecraft we wouldn't need threads like this in the first place.

I can cound the 'good overtakers' I know with my fingers, and the number of attentative lappee's on one hand (that I've come across). Doesn't that say something about the people using the sim.

We all have our strengths. Some are very good technically (setups). Others are good passers. Others have raw pace, whilst some have amazin consistency. But we should ALL try to improve ourselves in the area(s) where we are not strong.

For example. I am reasonably quick. At most tracks I can get to within a second or two of the WR within 10 laps. After 30 laps I am generally with half a second. I am, even if I do say so myself, very good at passing (that's my main strength). I am, howver, far too inconsistent, and make this worse trying to catch up for the original slip of concentration. If you had access to the team area of vMax's forum, you'll notice quite a number of threads by me moaning about my lack on consistency, and asking for suggestions on how to improve (without losing too much speed)). This is coming slowly now, as I am concentrating on it. I still make too many mistakes, but it's getting better everytime I play.

So there we are. I'm by no means perfect (in fact I'd consider myself high-average), but I AIM to be perfect. If I have a flaw (in this case consistency, but it might be I struggle at a particular corner whatever the car), then I work at the flaw until it is no longer the biggest flaw. Then I concentrate on the new biggest flaw.

The vast majority of people here don't do that. They play a bit. They can't overtake without causing an accident. But do they actively try to improve. Not really. Those that do are in a minority.

Amen, couldn't agree more, very spot on.

@Tristan

I can understand where you are comming from especially in terms of dedication to improvement etc.... What about the folks that share that concept but have a very limited time budget? Truthfully I practice offline for eons before I venture online for some of the very reasons you mentioned.... But I have a wife & 2 kids and a job and other hobbies (well not really but other things have to get done hehe) and therefore cannot spend a pile of time moving towards perfection. My desire is to join the NAL after this season is done and that will provide the level of professionalism I am looking for also. This way I can practice all week & qualify then have some high quality racing at a scheduled time. More leagues would help this situation, but it doesn't do anything for the degree of professionalism in pickup races....

Apologies if this has already been mentioned, I cannot be arsed to read through 2 pages of huge posts

The rules in LFS should be made slightly more realistic. If you ignore a blue flag after a certain ammount of time, you should be penalised. Over-taking under yellows should also inflict a penalty. What exactly the penalties would be, im not sure, but surely it would encourage drivers to obey the flag rules?

Quote from boxer :

The rules in LFS should be made slightly more realistic. If you ignore a blue flag after a certain ammount of time, you should be penalised. Over-taking under yellows should also inflict a penalty. What exactly the penalties would be, im not sure, but surely it would encourage drivers to obey the flag rules?

Actually that wouldn't be more realistic.

Quote :

According to the General Competition Rules, the blue flag is an advisory flag only, and may be held stationary or waved. In all cases the overtaking car has the responsibility to make a safe pass.

Slower people should move off the line, especially when being lapped, but there is no inherent right for a passing car to get the line simply because they are faster.

I know there are a lot of people that think they have some sort of divine right to pass, but they don't. The passer is always responsible to pass safely. Now if the slower car is purposely blocking, they should get a black flag. But determining blocking versus just staying on their line is something that's unfortunately not yet in the realms of the flag system of LFS (or really, any game).

I've seen a lot of crashes that were caused by people agressively passing in a turn, where in IRL they wouldn't dare because of safety. And then they start screaming about the guy they crashed into not respecting the blue flag.

I'm not saying these are the only culprits. I've seen plenty of people "ambling around the track, not worried if they cause a pile up" like Tristan put it, but i've seen just as many people driving like hot lappers blaming every crash in a hair pin on someone not getting out of their way.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Saved me typing the same thing. I'm an LFS newbie but I don't drive cars/tracks online if I don't know them, I observe flags, mirrors, other cars, etc. I do everything I can to not ruin other peoples' fun, and just because I'm not "dedicated" to being the best at a computer game that doesn't make me a hazard.

Then, by my definitions, you fall into the 'good' bracket. And I bet each time you play you (perhaps subconciously) say 'right, tonight I'm gonna beat that pb/not make mistakes/work out what castor does to the handling". You try to improve. Which is what I'm blathering on about.

It's the people that just drive about 'cos I like cars, innit. Oh s**t, was that another car. Ah well, I'll mess about somewhere else now' kinda guy.

Whilst thats an extreme, the 'casual messabouter' is in my experience on the increase, especially since S2 (maybe it's the damage?!). You will rarely have a good race with these kind of people. They are the people that don't care what happens (be it the odd wreck, not moving over, spend 45 minutes trying to make the damage as bad as possible whilst a race takes place). Wouldn't have more fun in a slightly less realistic game like GT4 (if was online). Or is the fact that you can cause vast amounts of damage what attracts the 'lesser' racers?

The last category, which is made up of a few moronic imbeciles, is the persistent, premeditated wrecker. They are few and far between (thank God/Scawen), but they exist. They will exist whether we encourage the hardcore only (and I include you and people like you in this thisnameistaken).

Basically, if you take your LFS doses seriously, whether you play for 20 minutes a week or 20 hours a week, then I have NO problems with you. If you play just because you like cars, but don't really care about the racing, or the racing mentality that you need, then kindly find something else to play (but keep paying for LFS, just don't play it :P).

Quote from sdether :

but i've seen just as many people driving like hot lappers blaming every crash in a hair pin on someone not getting out of their way.

Yes, there are certain people who won't admit a crash is EVER their fault. Thats irritating. But being [virtual] racing drivers, and with the spirit of competition, there will always be the dd incident where you both think the other person is at fault. Anyone from F1 drivers to people on motorways in real life have been known to blame someone for something regardless of what evidence is given to them.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Not workable in some cases unfortunately. You can run practically a whole race distance around the oval and never be caught by the guy the sim thinks is about to lap you. I suppose if you had an accident under yellow flags you could get black-flagged though. That would keep people's eyes open

Yeah I see your point. Thing is, it's possible to change the parimeters so LFS will only recognise a blue-flag situation when the car's are much closer. They've set it to a large distance to give the guy a lap down enough time to think about it (but it's too long imo!)

Quote from sdether :

Actually that wouldn't be more realistic.

lol are you denying penalties for those offences do not exist? How is it not more realistic?

Quote from ayrton senna 87 :

some of the applicant CRC guys are the most dangerous drivers, and in real life would be put in a fence! they brake stupidly early to avoid hitting anyone, but cause a pile up behind them, and this is on just normal laps!

I guess its time to start picking on groups of people now, but you will actually find that most CRC Applicants drive with the upmost respect to the track, other drivers and the Racing Rules.

This is really getting silly and off topic

The CRC Applicant Drivers are among the cleanest drivers out there, and it wouldn't hurt some of you more experienced drivers to either give them a chance or see how you do yourselves on the CRC Driving Tests

From most of these posts on the forum most of you dont even know you are no longer CRC members...

I'ma CRC Applicant, and last night had a great time on a CRC server with CRC and non-CRC bods alike (at least I presume we weren't all CRC people). I sympathise with Tristan's point of view to an extent, but I think we all need to recognise that different people come to LFS with different aims and expectations, and as long as those are not deliberately disruptive there ought to be room for everyone from the hardcore to the casual. Tristan mentioned flight sims and their hardcore fans - the downside of that is the fans alienate both devs and noobs, driving away customers, meaning no-one creates flight sims anymore (I know ther's more to it than that, and some are still developing, but in general terms...)

I kinda resent the implication that just because I'm an applicant I'm dangerous BTW.