Clearly Lewis and Felipe are on some kind of incentive scheme. When they see that races are a little dull they step in to give us something to talk about, and no doubt get a box of cookies to share for their trouble.

I was surprised that the penalty went the way it did. Not because I disagree with it, even though I think it was a bit harsh, but because of previous decisions. How Massa can be given a penalty for turning in when he thought he was far enough ahead to have the right to do so, whilst Vettel running Button onto the grass intentionally to make him brake goes unpunished is totally beyond me. Not to mention several other turn-in-on-someone decisions.

Still, hopefully this will do something to dis-spell the myth that the responsibility for avoiding a collision lies only with the car behind.

I don't think it dispels the myth. Had it been a different driver steward then the penalty could've easily gone the other way and we'd be in the same position arguing Massa was the guilty offender.

Quote from Intrepid :

I don't think it dispels the myth. Had it been a different driver steward then the penalty could've easily gone the other way and we'd be in the same position arguing Massa was the guilty offender.

No doubt. I wasn't suggesting that it has opened everyone's eyes somehow in a kind of matrix style way, but perhaps future decisions will take this one into consideration, and we won't have to ignore track position when someone turns in who is "ahead".

Quote from sinbad :

Clearly Lewis and Felipe are on some kind of incentive scheme. When they see that races are a little dull they step in to give us something to talk about, and no doubt get a box of cookies to share for their trouble.

I was surprised that the penalty went the way it did. Not because I disagree with it, even though I think it was a bit harsh, but because of previous decisions. How Massa can be given a penalty for turning in when he thought he was far enough ahead to have the right to do so, whilst Vettel running Button onto the grass intentionally to make him brake goes unpunished is totally beyond me. Not to mention several other turn-in-on-someone decisions.

Still, hopefully this will do something to dis-spell the myth that the responsibility for avoiding a collision lies only with the car behind.

How was he far enough ahead? He was far enough ahead that Hamilton could just disappear from the inside? What are you saying? Lol

When passing someone you will at some point, NOT be far enough alongside, so the alongside 'rule' is stupid. He was far enough alongside Massa for Massa to yeild because anything other than yeilding would have been a collision. And it's not Senna style crash or win tactics it's just how it is, every overtake that's ever happened could of been a crash if the overtaken car turned in.

Quote from BlueFlame :

How was he far enough ahead? He was far enough ahead that Hamilton could just disappear from the inside? What are you saying? Lol

He is saying that he doesn't understand why Massa was given a penalty when Vettel on Button @Suzuka, and other incidents, have gone unpunished. He isn't denying Massa's blame.

Quote from Intrepid :

He is saying that he doesn't understand why Massa was given a penalty when Vettel on Button @Suzuka, and other incidents, have gone unpunished. He isn't denying Massa's blame.

I know that, but he said Hamilton wasn't far enough ahead, and that Massa had right of way (in that incident). Which I disagree with. It was a racing incident and should have been treated that way.

Quote from BlueFlame :

I know that, but he said Hamilton wasn't far enough ahead, and that Massa had right of way (in that incident). Which I disagree with. It was a racing incident and should have been treated that way.

He doesn't say that.

Quote from Intrepid :

He doesn't say that.

No you're right he doesn't.

Inconsistency.

Prost wasn't punished for turning in on Senna in 1990. He knew exactly where Senna was because he turned for an apex 20 yards before the corner!

It's just so inconsistent!

Quote from Storm_Cloud :

It's just so inconsistent!

It's true. Only then Balestre was a clearly biassed fool.

Quote from BlueFlame :

How was he far enough ahead? He was far enough ahead that Hamilton could just disappear from the inside? What are you saying? Lol

When passing someone you will at some point, NOT be far enough alongside, so the alongside 'rule' is stupid. He was far enough alongside Massa for Massa to yeild because anything other than yeilding would have been a collision. And it's not Senna style crash or win tactics it's just how it is, every overtake that's ever happened could of been a crash if the overtaken car turned in.

I don't think you grasp the rules here at all. If we have a situation where Hamilton comes charging 200mph to the same corner being few car lengths away form Massa clearly braking too late will it be Massa's fault to turn in? Based on your ''rule'' it would be acceptable to ram a corner with way too much speed and if someone turnes in normally he should take the blame.

The key term in this scenario and all the scenarios before is ''being alongside'' which you do not seem to fully grasp. If you watched the race from BBC I think David Coulthard approached the situation well. If someone has the full comment that would be welcome but basically he said that Hamilton crammed himself into a corner where there was room for only one driver and (which to me seems to be the case in almost all Hamilton cases) if Massa had not turned in he wouldn't have made the corner at all because he had to turn in. On the other hand Hamilton was alongside so it is debatable that Massa no longer had the choice to dive to the corner because Hamilton was alongside and he should've just driven off the track. Coulthard also said that this was a racing incident and he would give neither a penalty and that because of Lewis' reputation if there was a penalty it should be given to Lewis.

Personally, I think Massa should've known Hamilton was there and he should've left Hamilton room and if Hamilton forced him to go wide (which would've most likely been the case) he should've complained that to the jury saying Hamilton pushed him out of the track and Hamilton might have been penalized. I don't know if I'd have given a penalty to Massa considering all the circumstances and the fact that Lewis wasn't penalized for turning on Massa in Japan. Then again, the jury have more angles and data we could dream of so the penalty given to Massa was most likely the right solution.

When you go inside a guy, you take a risk that he didn't see you, that there's not enough room, etc etc. If theres a gap, you go for it 99.99% of the time. In the best series in the world, with the best drivers in the world, you won't see two opportunities in 1 race.

Massa wasn't going to make the corner, because he braked too late regardless. You can't suggest all these parameters for backing out of an overtake or not going in for one. Overtakes are risky, crashes will happen that's what racing is. If the guy inside is clearly braking too late then penalize him, if he's been turned in on, penalize the other car. If neither are to blame penalize neither. Simple as that.

But it isn't and never can be as simple as that. Massa would have made the corner. Hamilton would have made the corner. Hamilton took a gamble that Massa wouldn't turn in. Massa took a gamble that Hamilton would back out of the move. Hamilton's gamble didn't work out, and he was lucky to survive. Massa's gamble didn't work out, and he was lucky to survive as well (but not for much longer).

I'm not 100% convinced a penalty was the right outcome, but there you go. At least it wasn't all Lewis' fault for once. And I think it shows you can see an awful lot in F1 mirrors, so nobody can hide behind that excuse any more.

Racing incident. Both could have done more to avoid it. At first glance I thought it was clearly Massa'a fault, but the in car convinced me it was more 50-50.

Dull race. I got up early and watched the Senna movie on Blu ray (recent birthday present) to get all fired up and then not much happened.

One problem we have these days is that the cars are a bit easy to drive. If they had way more power than grip then it would be more difficult to knock out the metronomic lap times that you get these days. There's too much that is easy flat for the front runners so a 4 second gap becomes unassailable.

I think Button got three or four laps all at exactly the same pace. And therein lies the rub. Now whilst I'm not saying that I am in anyway an F1 driver, I will say that these cars are right on the edge of what is physically possible within the rules. Which means that if you did a round robin of the top six drivers and the top six cars, threw all of them up in the air and swapped them around a bit, you'd still get pretty much identical lap times from them all. In some races the gap from pole to sixth is done in milliseconds. If you watch the comparison laps on the coverage, you couldn't slide a gnat whisker holding a cigerette paper between them.

We have found the edge of the performance envelope, and it's quite a crowded place. They need to wind back the Downforce, reduce the tyre widths and get those cars dancing again. Because whilst they stick to the road like glue, with tested to oblivion aero, you'll never get the true measure of man in harmony with machine. I've got fed up of Brundle pointing out the 'dirty' part of the track. The 'dirty' air. The 'dirty' tyres. . . . . Get dirty, get sideways, get close, get past, get repast, get past again. Get control, loose control, get control again. Lets see a full field of 20 cars all on the same damn straight, let alone on the same damn lap. Cap the team budgets, cap the drivers salary's, Cap the sponserhip deals and pop a cap in the arse of these hideously clinical and over designed tracks. Above all, get back to bloomin racing.

Phffft. Now where did I leave of in the Aussie v8's . . . . .

I loved the circuit, and I really hope India embraces the sport so that it can stay on the calender for a long time. Vettel is fast becoming one of my favourite F1 drivers, he is very intelligent and since winning his first title he seems much more relaxed, often being cheeky in interviews. I have great respect for his desire to beat records, and I love how he must have pole, fastest lap and the race win for it to be a good weekends racing. This pretty much sums up why I like him...

Quote :

When asked if Vettel had asked for permission to set the fastest lap at the end of the GP, Horner said: "Of course not because he knows we don't like it."


"We had done our best to manage it, we had turned all the engine modes down, KERS off, and short of putting a cow on the circuit there was not a lot else we could do."

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

I loved the circuit, and I really hope India embraces the sport so that it can stay on the calender for a long time. Vettel is fast becoming one of my favourite F1 drivers, he is very intelligent and since winning his first title he seems much more relaxed, often being cheeky in interviews. I have great respect for his desire to beat records, and I love how he must have pole, fastest lap and the race win for it to be a good weekends racing. This pretty much sums up why I like him...

I call BS on that QS. No way they turned everything down, it's just Red Bull playing it up.

Quote from BlueFlame :

I call BS on that QS. No way they turned everything down, it's just Red Bull playing it up.

If you mean at the end, they can't without Seb playing ball, so you are completely right. No way would I turn it down either, that thing is bullet proof.

This grand prix made me wish there was a circuit in Israel - the possibility of a "HAM <3 MAS" banner in that context amuses me to no end.

Quote from CSF :

If you mean at the end, they can't without Seb playing ball, so you are completely right. No way would I turn it down either, that thing is bullet proof.

They can't literally turn the engine down, etc. No telemetry from pit to car, therefore there are no magic buttons on the pit wall to make a car go slow.

Horner probably ordered Vettel to turn down the engine, not use KERS, and so on. Whether Vettel actually obeyed... well, I suspect he enjoyed a little wriggle of rebellion.

Mighty mighty speed by Vettel though. He had a lot on reserve, despite the dominance.

Quote from xaotik :

This grand prix made me wish there was a circuit in Israel - the possibility of a "HAM <3 MAS" banner in that context amuses me to no end.

Legendary post

Better would be an Israeli F1 team. IDF GP

Quote from BlueFlame :

Better would be an Israeli F1 team. IDF GP

I suppose there will be no Arab sponsors.

Quote from BlueFlame :

When you go inside a guy, you take a risk that he didn't see you.....

What you get up to out side of sim racing is your business, ok. Some things are best kept to yourself.