Quote from ajp71 :

I don't see the point in debating whether something that doesn't exsist IRL can be added to LFS.

I do, because LFS is a racing simulator. Fill-in-the-blank isn't simulating racing.

Quote from Shinanigans :

What i'm ultimately getting down to is; there is a minority group of LFS players who enjoy drifting. I'd like to see this community grow so we have more people to drift with. Finally, a racing simulator that is accurate enough to properly drift on! This is great! It would be nice if people stopping playing black man/white man and have fun with what they like doing and leave whatever they don't like doing to everyone else. Just because it's a "racing" simulator, doesn't mean you can't take full benefit of the fantastic physics and do other things with the game also.

the racers of the lfs community had to adjust to tyre wear and fuel usage when s2 was released, drifters must do the same. same thing regarding steering lock reductions. the more serious drifters will welcome these new changes and adjust their drifting to suit.

didn't you notice post #8?

Quote from StanleyCarter :

LOL!!

You're a serious drifter?

You don't need no 'drift tyres' to drift in LFS.

Supers/Normals will do JUST FINE. Have fun drifting.

Stanley's gotta be one of the best drifters around in S2, and even he doesn't see the need for some theoretical tyre which grips yet wears slower than normal rubber does. and how can tyres which have crap grip for racing suddenly be good for drifting? drifting needs grip also, otherwise you'd have to lower the speeds at which you drift at, to stop yourself from sliding off the road.

real life drifters have to deal with the savage tyre wear that their driving styles cause, so do you the REAL lfs drifters have accepted it and moved on happily. be thankful new tyres are only a pitstop/pitwarp away and that you're not having to pay for them

Quote from wark :

I do, because LFS is a racing simulator. Fill-in-the-blank isn't simulating racing.

Did you read my post or any of this thread? You appear to oppose the addition of 'drift' tires and my post when my post was opposing the addition of these magical tires.

Takumi,

I know i'm far from the best drifter in LFS but i never asked for anything that helps me drift better.

What i'd like to see is more smoke produced quicker. Some coloured smoke woul also be a cool looking option to have. I very briefly mentioned the possibility of longer lasting tyres. I also said when i mentioned it that longer lasting tyres could detract from the realism but questioned whether or not that was a positive or negative thing to implement into the racing simulator.

I'm with you and the other dude, i don't want anything that makes drifting easier. That's where the fun is, in the challenge of controlling the car.

Cheers.

Instead of asking for specific tires we should ask for the ability to make our own tires. we should have a slider for

Compound- Soft TO hard
Wheel Size
Profile
Rims Size
Thread patterns

i think this would suit everyone Drift and Racing. it would prob make Racing a bit more exciting.

Quote from Shinanigans :

Takumi,

I know i'm far from the best drifter in LFS but i never asked for anything that helps me drift better.

What i'd like to see is more smoke produced quicker. Some coloured smoke woul also be a cool looking option to have. I very briefly mentioned the possibility of longer lasting tyres. I also said when i mentioned it that longer lasting tyres could detract from the realism but questioned whether or not that was a positive or negative thing to implement into the racing simulator.

I'm with you and the other dude, i don't want anything that makes drifting easier. That's where the fun is, in the challenge of controlling the car.

Cheers.

sorry mate i just re-read my post, sounded like i was aiming at you. was meant to just be replying to everyone in general smoke is another issue i guess and i dont really have an opinion about it

Quote from ajp71 :

Did you read my post or any of this thread? You appear to oppose the addition of 'drift' tires and my post when my post was opposing the addition of these magical tires.

Right. You implied that if these "magical" tires were introduced you would see no point in debating against that decision (not just for it). I said I see a point.

It takes two sides for a debate.

normals are just fine for drifting. i think the only good thing that could come from a drift tire is if it made a whole lot of smoke.

Please excuse me if I posted any false info on special drifting tyres. The reason why I wrote that there was because I assumed that since they have drifting tyres in RC racing, I thought they must have been derived from full scale car drifting. So, sorry again if I posted any false info.

Quote from wark :

Right. You implied that if these "magical" tires were introduced you would see no point in debating against that decision (not just for it). I said I see a point.

No, I said there's no point in suggesting whether something that doesn't exsist in real life can be added to LFS, a simulation of real life.

Didn't read the whole thread here so sorry if I say something that's been said already. Since the tires in LFS are very sensitive to temperature and wear it'd be nice for the drifters to have a tire that is not nearly so sensitive, but produces a bit less grip than the others so people don't find they are better for racing than the road supers are.

I don't drift in LFS very often at all, but a +1 here anyway. The more happy people the better

Quote from jtw62074 :

Didn't read the whole thread here so sorry if I say something that's been said already. Since the tires in LFS are very sensitive to temperature and wear it'd be nice for the drifters to have a tire that is not nearly so sensitive, but produces a bit less grip than the others so people don't find they are better for racing than the road supers are.

I don't drift in LFS very often at all, but a +1 here anyway. The more happy people the better

You really should have read the thread

@jtw - rubber is sensitive to temperature IRL you want Scawen to rewrite the physics just so you can drift in an imaginery world?

Not all tread rubber compounds are noticeably sensitive to temperature (up to the point of melting, anyway). Particularily in street compounds used in drifting. Touche..

Edit: As I said before, I very rarely drift in LFS. If I want to do some drifting I just fire up my own sim Anyway, drifting in LFS absolutely destroys the tires and causes them to lose huge amounts of grip due to the heating in an extraordinarily short amount of time. I'm suggesting having a tire that's toned down a bit (which is closer to reality, mind you, so your "imaginary world" comment can find a place to park itself)

Quote from ajp71 :

@jtw - rubber is sensitive to temperature IRL you want Scawen to rewrite the physics just so you can drift in an imaginery world?

Actually, this post was a bit snippy and defensive so I must ask you a couple questions here:

1) How sensitive to temperature is "rubber"? Which rubber? And in what ways is it sensitive to it?

2) What "rewriting of physics" would need to be done to implement my suggestion?

If you were polite I'd have left ya alone, but...

Quote from ajp71 :

No, I said there's no point in suggesting whether something that doesn't exsist in real life can be added to LFS, a simulation of real life.

http://m-w.com/dictionary/suggest

I find I have a strong point with which to debate that:

Quote from ajp71 :

I don't see the point in debating whether something that doesn't exsist IRL can be added to LFS.

http://m-w.com/dictionary/debate

:munching_

(Edit: Links added for apparently needed clarification; I know what you meant, I'm telling you what you said. My exhortation: choose words that say what you mean.)

Door hitting a head sound on your way out?

@wark - you know what I mean

@jtw - as has been already established in this thread there is no such thing as a drift tire (other than the coloured smoke variants) IRL, instead real drifters go through lots of sets of sports tires. So what is the suggestion? From what I gather you people want a sports tire that doesn't go off with temperature but with more grip than road normals?

I don't recall saying there was such a thing as a drift tire in my posts.

Anyway, my suggestion is to have a tire in LFS that is more suitable for drifting. Something more like a real road tire that doesn't evaporate and lose all its grip after a minute of sliding the car around, as in something more like a real street tire. This is most likely a matter of creating a new tire data set with some different variables for heating factors and different curves for grip vs. temperature. Your suggestion that rewriting the entire physics engine or any part of it to accomodate this is absurd.

The grip level of such a "real road tire" in relation to the other "LFS road tires" can be debated. I'm not interested enough to worry about it. As I said, I don't drift in LFS. I prefer straight up racing by far. However, I don't see what all the fuss is about in including a tire that has grip/temperature/heat rate characteristics closer to a real street tire than what the tires currently available have. Rest assured all those sorts of curves in all these sims we play are completely made up by the developers rather than having been extracted from any real data, so it would be wise to refrain from believing such a tire is imaginary while the road supers and what-not are accurate in this regard.

As I said, different compounds can work drastically differently. No sim to date approaches the basic heat/grip rubber relationship correctly by any stretch of the imagination, so let's take what we have and make the most of it

Let's have a set of tires that aren't nearly as effected by heat/wear as in LFS, that's all. There are indeed real tires that work that way. They're sitting on your car at home right now. Are they "drift tires?" Nope. Never said they were.

Quote from jtw62074 :

Something more like a real road tire that doesn't evaporate and lose all its grip after a minute of sliding the car around, as in something more like a real street tire.

have you ever drifted your real car? And done so at speeds of 100kph (60mph) PLUS!? I doubt it. So I don't think you can suggest that standard tyres on our cars heat up slower compared to lfs.

100kph feels quite slow in lfs, but in real life is about the fastest you'll ever do on the road. standard road tyres heat up alot quicker than you'd think when pushed to the limit or past. go flog your car around a circuit somewhere and see for yourself

I really don't get it....

WHY do you need "special" tires just for Drifting!?

Who cares if the LFS tires do worn out just like real life (LFS is pretty forgiving with the 'Normals', we LFS drifters perform drifts above 150km/h all the time, and we could last for several laps, try that in real life and your tires would be toasted in no time), that's just how tires are and its also the fun part of sliding your car around the track.

LFS needs no "drift tires", all they need is even more realistic tire physics (pretty realistic now, but there's always room for improvement), while we drifters, should focus more on perfecting our skills instead of thinking about specially made tires for drifting.

Quote from StanleyCarter :

I really don't get it....

WHY do you need "special" tires just for Drifting!?

Who cares if the LFS tires do worn out just like real life (LFS is pretty forgiving with the 'Normals', we LFS drifters perform drifts above 150km/h all the time, and we could last for several laps, try that in real life and your tires would be toasted in no time), that's just how tires are and its also the fun part of sliding your car around the track.

LFS needs no "drift tires", all they need is even more realistic tire physics (pretty realistic now, but there's always room for improvement), while we drifters, should focus more on perfecting our skills instead of thinking about specially made tires for drifting.

YEP

Trouble is some think that the drifting they watch on TV shows or in films like FAF and the like that tires last for ages. Its like the action film where you never see people reload their 6 shooter yet fire off loads of rounds. They dodn't realise people do tire changes between drift duals etc. Thats why I put the idea of harder compund with worse grip.

I think a few people here need to realise that drifting EATS tires IRL just as it does in LFS and that tires go off quick when they overheat.

Hard compound = longer lasting BUT less grip
Softer compound = shorter life BUT more grip.

For those asking for longer lasting tires with grip, learn about tires because the two DO NOT go hand in hand. If they did you would not see so many tire changes during races IRL.

you sure about that compound stuff Woz? When I stuck 'standard' tyres on the back of my rx7, they were falling apart after about 5 laps (40 seconds in a basic sportscar) of sillyness. They didn't 'wear out' from the heat, the hard rubber just chunked very, very badly and got torn apart. Softer, sportier tyres, last far, far longer in the same circumstances.

Quote from Takumi_Project.d :

have you ever drifted your real car? And done so at speeds of 100kph (60mph) PLUS!? I doubt it. So I don't think you can suggest that standard tyres on our cars heat up slower compared to lfs.

Yes, I have. Not for extended periods of time though, just an occasional fun slide now and then or a 360 or two on the freeway at 75-80 mph

Anyway, I was not suggesting that the tires in LFS heat up too quickly when drifting. If you'll read my posts again, you'll see what I said was that street tires do not lose tremendous amounts of grip in reality when sliding around a bunch. Do they get hotter than heck very quickly? Of course they do, I never said otherwise. The smoke is sort of a dead giveaway, at least surface temperature-wise.

The LFS street tires lose more grip due to temperature when sliding around than a real LOCKED street tire does. That's locked, as in one small piece of rubber being cooked off, liquified, melted away with no chance to cool through a rotation of the wheel. Yet that has more grip than a street tire here that's maybe 10-20 deg C above the "optimal temp."

For sim racing (not-drifting) people want the effect of temperature effecting grip so they can play around with the setup to try to optimize things. That works just fine in LFS. However, it kills drifters and quite frankly is not right in that situation.

Quote :

100kph feels quite slow in lfs, but in real life is about the fastest you'll ever do on the road. standard road tyres heat up alot quicker than you'd think when pushed to the limit or past. go flog your car around a circuit somewhere and see for yourself

Again, the rate at which the tires heat up was not my point. You zeroed in on one little comment I made and somehow missed the majority and meat of my discussion, which was about the amount of grip the tires lost after they DID heat up.

So, I'll try this one more time:

Drifters in LFS need a tire that loses about as much grip in reality due to temperature as a real tire does. Who cares what the temperature is at the end of that or how quickly it heats up? It will heat more or less to an equilibrium temperature at some point and stay there lap after lap. At that temperature, on a street tire the grip should not be some 70% of the "optimal temperature."

My publisher ran a Donkervoort for a few years on a European championship. One of his training days consisted of several hours of full, opposite lock, high speed drifting. Never did he discuss any significant (or even noticable) loss of grip because the tires got too hot, and that was on racing slicks that are a lot more sensitive to temperature than street tires are.

Drifters don't need some special "drift tires." They just need street tires that act more like real ones do.

I'm not even going to start talking about tire wear and what really happens there

Anyway, enough from me on this topic. Have at it, guys.

Probably best to quit whilst you're ahead Todd, as people can't cope with more that single sentence posts. They start reading stuff you haven't written, and making stuff up from out of context quotes. Best just to smile and nod