Thanks for that post Becky. Might have to re-read some of those final paragraphs again to get my head around them . I wish someone with the requisite skills would give it a go (that's not quite a hint). Are the numbers racing on LFS great enough to make it worthwhile? Would it be sensible to get something prepped ready for the influx of racers (hopefully) when the updated physics come out?

Quote from Flame CZE :

Why don't you remove all the messages in the AIRIO options?

Wasn't aware I could do that. Thanks

Quote from Becky Rose :

...

I seem to remember you referring to 'Blue 2' that you were developing a couple of years ago. Was that a personal project or something related to CTRA / UKCT?

I've been reading your post curious as to what happened to it in the end

Quote from Becky Rose :

And in my view achieving 95% accuracy is achievable with a fairly simple rule: In the event of a collision the car which was behind 3 seconds before the contact is at fault in all circumstances when the car in front maintained a normal line.

The collision is worthy of recording when one or more cars involved in the collision complete the section of track (an area much smaller than a split sector - say, 1 corner either side of the incident corner) slower than their usual delta time plus a percentage threshold that would have to be determined with some testing.

If the car infront did not maintain line then determine the relative overlap of the cars at the point the vehicles changed direction to determine fault.

Interesting idea. What about the first few corners, particularly where the track is wide?
Many incidents involving unacceptable driving occur in the first few corners. There are lots of cars side by side. There is no 'normal line'. People get shunted into others. People deviate from their line to avoid being shunted... etc.
Do you ignore starts ? maybe hope that folks who are naughty at the start will be bad elsewhere and eventually get punished for that reason...

I guess it can still work as long as you start at the back and build some sort of 'blame tree' so if someone has been shunted themselves prior to causing an accident, you don't blame them - you pass the blame back.

My main worry would be that with 95% accuracy, you still might get some poor unlucky racer who just gets a string of false positives, then gets banned unfairly - sure for each individual, the chance is low, but the more races and racers there are, the closer the probablility gets to 1 that it will happen.
And it may work out that a few people due to racing style (not unfair, just slightly unusual) set off a lot more false positives due to blind spots in the algorithm...

Quote from NigelY :

Thanks for that post Becky. Might have to re-read some of those final paragraphs again to get my head around them . I wish someone with the requisite skills would give it a go (that's not quite a hint). Are the numbers racing on LFS great enough to make it worthwhile? Would it be sensible to get something prepped ready for the influx of racers (hopefully) when the updated physics come out?

I do not consider the current number of racers in LFS as an issue because projects of the nature that I would write do not require large user bases - they create them.

As a geek coder I have nothing left to achieve with LFS, I already wrote more LFS mods than some race games have in total so for me to become interested now I have to consider it in the wider context of my life: I am 3 months in to starting a new business at the moment and I am still maintaining my career, so to take on this extra burden on my free time I would need to balance that against the reward - and that means making a workable business model.

To make a CTRA like system profitable is difficult because the core of the system would have to be free, LFS players would not stomach paying a fee. I could monetise an STCC like project, and build that on top of the CTRA just like I did before - but already that's two major projects and represents significant investment.

To do that I would need to feel confident in LFS as a platform because my work would be so dependent upon it and for that to happen I would need to sit down with Scawen and Victor and help sort out some of their marketing issues (marketing is what I do nowadays), because when I look at LFS what I see is public relations madness and it is a situation that is easily reversible.

Over the years I have gotten to know Victor a little, but Scawen I only know through observation and forum discussion. What I have observed is what I have previously (and afffectionately) described as the business equivelent of a communist, and that leaves me too unsure of the LFS platform to consider it a reliable investment.

Quote from JO53PHS :

I seem to remember you referring to 'Blue 2' that you were developing a couple of years ago. Was that a personal project or something related to CTRA / UKCT?

I've been reading your post curious as to what happened to it in the end

Blue 2 was an idea I had to take what was good about the CTRA and strip out what didnt work - namely the reporting...

The idea was that you could connect every server in LFS to it (at the server owners discretion) and gain features comparable to the CTRA servers and it would operate a CTRA like web page and statistical system - you could compete in numerous championships from STD racing through to clean driver cups, endurance cups and so on to earn badges.

Then each week server owners could apply to be a "Pro" server for a week - one for tin tops, one for open wheelers - and these would be restricted to drivers who achieved the pre-requisite number of badges the previous week. The pro racers would have some cool rewards and because of their restricted nature would likely have the cleanest racing. In return for this "free" traffic to their servers the pro server operators would be required to maintain minimum standards of admining or have to "take a break" from the pro program, and because the pro servers changed each week no one operator would be swamped with a backlog - they apply for a period of one week when they have a team willing to stand by and help out for that week.

I ran out of motivation for the project because I started dating and my partner just didnt share my passion for nerdyness. Needless to say that didn't last long! Also Ario appeared on the scene which invalidated the need to find a way to make many of the CTRA-like features available to the masses.

Quote from col :

Interesting idea. What about the first few corners, particularly where the track is wide?

The first sector would require different rules (as indeed it has in F1) but in all likelihood is even easier. If two cars contact, whoever was behind 3 seconds prior to the contact is at fault. Obviously if you get hit you are then "immune" to blame for a short while. That would likely achieve the desired 95% accuracy ratio and likely greater. It would certainly encourage the desired effect (to not brake so late you are fully on the brakes and unable to react to the car infront).

Quote :

And it may work out that a few people due to racing style (not unfair, just slightly unusual) set off a lot more false positives due to blind spots in the algorithm...

This would be my biggest concern too and would have to be identified by running a prototype with lots of live data with lots of car and circuit combos and then studying the replays of the drivers who are the most anomalous in the data.

EDIT: But I think the lesson from the CTRA data is that the difference between the good and the bad drivers in the data was quite noticeable.

Quote :

I do not consider the current number of racers in LFS as an issue because projects of the nature that I would write do not require large user bases - they create them.

What a reply, bloody great that.

We pay for high res skins. What about an extension of that system? Load up your LFS account and pay a small fee per race? Automated beginner servers, low maintenance admin on higher ranked servers. Bring back televised STCC. Go for it. The world's your lobster.

Quote from Becky Rose :

Blue 2 was an idea I had to take what was good about the CTRA and strip out what didnt work - namely the reporting...

The idea was that you could connect every server in LFS to it (at the server owners discretion) and gain features comparable to the CTRA servers and it would operate a CTRA like web page and statistical system - you could compete in numerous championships from STD racing through to clean driver cups, endurance cups and so on to earn badges.

Then each week server owners could apply to be a "Pro" server for a week - one for tin tops, one for open wheelers - and these would be restricted to drivers who achieved the pre-requisite number of badges the previous week. The pro racers would have some cool rewards and because of their restricted nature would likely have the cleanest racing. In return for this "free" traffic to their servers the pro server operators would be required to maintain minimum standards of admining or have to "take a break" from the pro program, and because the pro servers changed each week no one operator would be swamped with a backlog - they apply for a period of one week when they have a team willing to stand by and help out for that week.

That's a great idea. It seems to me that it is also exactly the sort of thing the devs could and should be working on.
Aside from creating a better racing environment, it would also help in pulling the community together, having these server specific web pages as part of the LFS site would be cool. Linking data from the racing system to the main website and the forum... could have user review of servers - like amazon

Quote from col :

That's a great idea. It seems to me that it is also exactly the sort of thing the devs could and should be working on.
Aside from creating a better racing environment, it would also help in pulling the community together, having these server specific web pages as part of the LFS site would be cool. Linking data from the racing system to the main website and the forum... could have user review of servers - like amazon

Thanks, shame I never finished it!

The other element that I neglected to cover above with that the badges available each week would change. The idea being that it would drive more variety in to online racing.

Everyone wants variety - but they gravitate toward particular servers whey they know they can get instant gratification - but in the Blue2 concept one week there might be badges for UF1, and another week it would be LX6. The idea would be to offer enough badges to appeal to everyone and thus generate some movement on to all those unused combos - whilst keeping enough generic badges such as "Sprint Race Wins" to populate the pro servers irrespective of the population shifts, ie: for these badges to encourage and shape rather than to divide and rule the active LFS user base.

Seems people can not understand, as they simply can't think the things on other side/other hand, that is the problem... But I am not arguing this, because it is not necessarily... It was only what I felt, not what you feel...

And once again, I did respect blue flag AND EVEN yellow ones! How many respects yellow flags in public server? In nowadays I ignore yellow ones, but not blue ones...

Anyway, --->

Just opened Pure Racing for public, hav fun! Hope LFSNews will aprove my article soon

Wanna know more? http://www.trekkerfahrer.com/

I think I'm the first one who came there, cool!

i think i was there before you

Quote from cargame.nl :

Somebody got autokicked for saying **** btw.. Somebody else spamming the chat... People keep driving with completely f. up cars.

This was good? Nah. Sorry.

Getting kicked for swearing or spamming the chat was superb. It's what separates childish public servers from a more mature environment to race in.

CTRA was the best thing that ever happened to LFS,

"This was good?" Yes, it was very,very good. Nothing before or after in LFS ever got close to providing the quality of racing on public servers, the great atmosphere to race in or the quality of community.

I will be forever grateful to Becky, Sam and the rest of the peeps involved for providing the place that gave me my most enjoyable times in sim racing.

EDIT: And grateful to the many fine racers who made all that fun racing possible of course! Nice to see so many familiar names in this thread. Great memories

why dont we all tbo-ers get together for some oldschool action?

Quote from The Moose :

CTRA was the best thing that ever happened to LFS,

"This was good?" Yes, it was very,very good. Nothing before or after in LFS ever got close to providing the quality of racing on public servers, the great atmosphere to race in or the quality of community.

+1 :iagree:
I dont drive online anymore because can't find any CTRA-level servers. Cargame is full of crashers, no fair play etc. Btw CTRA(STCC) was the reason I bought LFS. :woohoo:

Holy Moses, Moose joined Radicals? ha! I remember beta testing the "new" CTRA system with halford's celtic, niels, stableX, myself, and with you, and everyone else, for the B&J nights, ect.

if something similar came back, you can bet I'd knock the rust offa my digital wheel bearings.

I went to platinum BASICALLY from STD racing. period. lol. I did some TBO racing towards the end of my LFS days back then, and a lot of B&J before it was said & done, but I loved the general discipline that was achieved with the old CTRA servers.

Yeah there were some dive bombers. but even they figured out that you only lose a race in T1L1, not win after a few dummy checks.

I took a lot of pride that I seldom qualified well, but nearly always finished much better, having picked quite a few off when the laps started counting down for real.

Yep, it's definitely time to update your signature and remove dead CTRA tagging.

Quote from e2mustang :

why dont we all tbo-ers get together for some oldschool action?

When, where btw : http://www.lfsforum.net/forumdisplay.php?f=355

and

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=78193

Quote from 'Ultimate[RUS :

I dont drive online anymore because can't find any CTRA-level servers. Cargame is full of crashers, no fair play etc.

And whats this then?

http://www.spdoracing.com/even ... r/Ultimate%5BRUS%5D/hosts

If you want to be member of the 'back in the old days everything was better you damn kidz!'-gang thats fine, loads of them here.. But at least ... Well.. never mind.

I'm more of the philosophy that everything was exactly the same back then. Or even worse, according to Youtube video's. But.. I know from experience that are highlights anyway. Too bad nobody comes up with actual replays from that time.

Quote from col :

That's a great idea. It seems to me that it is also exactly the sort of thing the devs could and should be working on.
Aside from creating a better racing environment, it would also help in pulling the community together, having these server specific web pages as part of the LFS site would be cool. Linking data from the racing system to the main website and the forum... could have user review of servers - like amazon

Nail firmly hit!

Perhaps the only thing that Iracing has over LFS is in the structured and professional racing that it offers. That part of it is probably relatively simple (compared to building the sim) to build and maintain. People put up with the cost, and the various inadequacies of Iracing, just to get some good competitive racing.

Sometimes it takes an intelligent adult who has so much experience, and can provide a balanced and honest outsiders POV (as Becky currently can) to see clearly what LFS is, what it should be, and how to get there. It's just a shame that there is no-one with the same passion who has the spare time!