tristan, i agree with your reply. it sounded much less elitist than the original thread i was refering to.
you talk about ambitious drivers working to get better, you do not talk about skilled or unskilled anymore.. and you're completely right here...

i'm one of those unskilled ambitious drivers - i practiced for ages in S1 to break the 1:39.9 barrier on BL1 with the XFG and only started racing online on occupied public servers after that. running 1:39's or 1:38's in S1 (although it was harder than in S2) takes some more talented guys probably 3 or 4 laps with a decent setup - some have never made it because the lack even more talent than i do.

i try to get better, do practice ususally the first few laps offline or at least on an empty server or private server, where i do know all the other racers.

but still i am one of those that might be overcautious in T1 and breaks too early - so i would be one of these guys that is classified as unprofessional in the original post and that should better be playing GT4. now there are tons of guys like me. trying to get better on every lap and every track they run within their limits set by practice time and given talent and i do think that these guys belong into LfS as well as into racing in real life.

and there is no system that can decide if someone is willing to learn and to get better and makes a mistake or if he is just too stupid to follow rules and wants to take out others... the only way is to join private servers where you know all racers - that'S why i was talking about additional serverside filters, making it possible to decide as a host, if there are certain requirements needed for a racer to join. this way the host would decide if a certain amount of experience is needed or a certain speed level and the joining drivers would most likely find a server with pretty equal opponents

this can never be a general rule for the sim, since no statistc could see if a new driver without any online records is talented or not, is a wrecker or drives clean and so on - but i t could be very useful as a filter and would allow more people to join high-class-servers as the private server system

my thoughts were:

- online mileage as filter (at least xxxx miles driven online)
- PB's as filter (at least 1xx% of the WR as PB to join the server)
- finished races as filter (at least xxx finished races to join the server)
- online credits (at least xxxx credits to join the server)

usually deliberate wreckers do not finish races very often, bad drivers do, so not a perfect filter. PB'S are also not perfect, because a lot of ruthless drivers are very fast but a lot of cautious 'gentleman drivers' will never reach the PB filter, same goes for mileage or credits

but i think ALL suggestions would be better than forcing drivers to take offline tests just to drive a car online - look at the forced career mode of rfactor and how most of us called it - arcadey.. well these driving tests are exactly the same if they are forced...

It seems to me like there are a couple of different things being discussed at the same time in this thread. Wreckers, i.e. those who intentionally try to mess up other peoples fun, is a separate thing. I've only seen wreckers once in LFS so it's not a big deal to me.

More interesting is the discussion about people who screw up due to inexperience, attitude problems or whatever. This is not something that can be learned by any kind of licensing system, nor is it directly related to driver skill.

I am new to LFS, though I've been driving racing-sims for a long time. That means I am not particularly fast, yet. On the other hand I always try to drive clean. If I find myself in a crowd that is much faster than me, I'll let them by and do my own thing while trying not to screw up their race. I still enjoy driving with others, even if I can't beat them. If I didn't I'd be offline driving GTR. When I do find myself in a crowd that is at about my level, I race competitively. Of course I still screw up sometimes, when I do I apologize.

My point is that how quick you are around the track does not really have much to do with your respect for others, or lack thereof. That is an attitude and maturity issue. I often see fast drivers, much faster than me, who try to overtake in places where it is impossible to overtake for example. You don't see Schumie or Kimi do that in real life (but you do see Sato doing it).

Anyway, racing on open servers inevitably means that drivers with different skill level, of different levels of maturity and with different attitudes will be on the same track. Anyone who want super-clean racing where all the drivers are at the same skill level have to race on closed servers, there's just no way to enforce that on an open server.

Obviously the same thing applies to servers that allows any type of car. One does not have to be a genius to realize that a UF1 is going to appear almost stationary to someone driving a FO8. I guess servers that allow all cars have more in common with a real-life "track-day" where anyone can come and race their car, than with an organized competition. Track-day events require the drivers to prioritize everyones enjoyment over their own lap-times, yet some won't do that.

Sorry if I got sidetracked. But from what I've seen most people behave quite well in LFS. I've never got really pissed off at anyone and when people do annoy me I just pick a different server. I never got myself kicked or banned either. I 'm having fun and I do not think it is possible to regulate out all bad or stupid behaviour by any kind of automated rating system or by voting.

/Steve

Tristan, you wrote:

Quote from tristancliffe :

I like to think that EVERYONE who plays LFS more than 2 to 3 hours a week has the mentality of "I want to be the best racer in every aspect ever".

And a bit later you wrote:

Quote from tristancliffe :

Even the amateur races try to improve themselves. They are serious about their racing (or they wouldn't do it).

Speed has nothing to do with it. You can be a great racer and still be 4 seconds off the pace (you just race greatly with slower people).

What I meant was dedication. That's what we lack.

These two statements seem contradictory to me. The first implies that only super-competitive, type A personalites with the goal to kick everyone elses butt should play LFS and the rest should go do something else.

The second statement I read as you're asking for dedication to improving ones own skill, to attemt to continuously improve ones previous performace. The latter, of course, is possible even for the slowest driver alive.

The first statement is elitist, the second reflects more of a Zen attitude. Dramatically different. Que?

/Steve

I wrote I like to think they are like that. Perhaps I should have written I wish, but it means the same thing basically.

I couldn't care less if you are the WR holder or 4 seconds of the pace (much slower and you should have a play offline first). But as long as you try, perhaps subconsiously, to get a bit better, or do something different to see if it works, then thats fine. But, in my experience, over half of the drivers in LFS don't care. They have no desire to get better (or perhaps they have the desire, but are too lazy to analyse the problem to overcome it).

Being the best racer doesn't necessarily mean winning every race. I mean working towards the goal of being perfect at overtaking, at hotlapping, at pitstops, at strategy.

I think if you look at my posts again you'll see that they are actually very similar. I'm not denying either are elitist. Sims ARE elitist, just like real life is. You don't get grannies in Formula One because they can't drive. So why do we get grannies in LFS so much? They can't drive. They can't get within a second of WR. They can't race without causing an accident. They can't even be lapped without causing an accident. They have no hope of ever getting in the top 3 of any race ever?

Why do they play? For the fun and satisfaction? Wuldn't they get a bit more satisfaction playing a slightly less realistic driving game, and actually achieving something? Or is it because GT4 (the slightly less realistic driving game I tend to use in my examples, but I'm not referring to the consoley nature as such) doesn't have damage. I really do think that part of LFS's 'problem' in S2 is the fact that idiots with burberry (aka Chavs) are attracted by damage.

well i don'T think sims are elitist - only some people whi drive them. as motorsport in general is not elitist.
there are tons of untalented drivers racing every weekend - and even in the FIA-GT series, there are drivers just not good, that bought themselves a cockpit, because they are dedicated racers

the further down you go, the more untalented drivers are on the track - having enough money lets you race in pretty fast classes without having huge talent

that's why i absolutely doubt that a sim should be only for the elite - if almost everybody can race in some series in real life (as long as he can afford it)

the ones unable to handle a car at the lowest level and unable to follow racing rules might lose their licenses in real life, but not the ones who are just slow and not able to keep up with the pace of the faster guys will still find a series, where they will be accepted. same should apply for LfS - if there'S a pro league/pro-sever as private server, that's ok. no one is forced to open up for slower guys - but on every public server and rookie league, there shouldn't be adiscussion at all about guys being cautious, breaking a little earlier than thought, taking strange lines through some turns and so on - as long as they try not to interfere with faster drivers, obey flags and do not drive reckless, these drivers should be welcome and not flamed online or in any community forum

Quote from tristancliffe :

I wrote I like to think they are like that. Perhaps I should have written I wish, but it means the same thing basically.
<snip>
I think if you look at my posts again you'll see that they are actually very similar. I'm not denying either are elitist. Sims ARE elitist, just like real life is. You don't get grannies in Formula One because they can't drive. So why do we get grannies in LFS so much? They can't drive. They can't get within a second of WR. They can't race without causing an accident. They can't even be lapped without causing an accident. They have no hope of ever getting in the top 3 of any race ever?

I did read back and I admit that I may have read more into your first post than I should've. If so, my bad, sorry.

However, I disagree that both posts are elitist. I don't think there's anything elitist about wanting to race with people who are taking the game seriously, who try to improve their skills and who show respect for others.

I can't really see what possible harm a slow but careful and respectful driver could do on an open server? If "granny" enjoys driving LFS, if "she" is seconds after pace but let faster drivers have their space and if she can control the car well enough not to screw things up for everyone else, I can't see the problem with her driving.
I certainly do not consider "her" to be a bigger problem than a fast driver with a world record hotlap that try to pass me in a f*cking chicane, where not even Michael Schumacher would attempt to get past, rather than waiting 3 seconds, because he can't control his adrenaline-rush.

/Steve

[Edited for clarity]

Yes thats a good point. But I think you've missed my meaning of elitist.

By elitist I think most people wrongly think of the hottest drivers, or the most serious people. What elitist means in my opinion is those that are willing to put in a bit of effort. Some grannies (good generic term) DO put effort in, even if they remain seconds off the race pace. I have NO problem with them. I like to encourage newbies. See me online and I quite frequently go out of my way to help a slower person if he WANTS to learn. And I am happy to take relevent advice from someone about an espect of my driving even if the advice giver is slow in terms of pace.

The grannies that don't fall into my elitist camp, those that think 'okay, so I'm 6 seconds of the pace, I can't see where to go faster, so I'll just stick to this cos it works'. There is no drive (no pun intended) to improve. No asking questions. No paying attention to what the other people are doing, either around them, lapping them, or whatever.

Don't think I want to 'get rid of' anyone and everyone who is 5+ seconds off the pace. God no! We all have to start somewhere. Some, with more time and dedication, might become the next Arrechee, others might only ever get to a couple of seconds of 'the pace', because time (and therefore practice) does not come regularly enough. But if they WANT to improve, be it a tenth or a second then they are okay in my book.

If you are playing LFS simply because you can, or because it's cheap, or because 'it's got damage innit', then you are NOT okay. And I really to think that kind of person will have more fun overall, and a greater sense of achievement in another game anyway.

Maybe I'm missing the point of the 100% casual couldn't care less driver. But most people in this thread now seem to be slightly more serious about it, so even they can't really comment on what goes through their mind.

Don't misunderstand me please. I love LFS, and I love the community. Most online races are fun, but occasionally spoiled by ignorant people tootling around without a care in the world (mistakes not wishstanding).


Edit:
For example, a few months back I started trying to get into IL2. I wanted to learn how to everything, from great dogfighting, to carrier landings in stormy conditions. But I wasn't able to put in the time (cos S2 demo/alpha was released :P), therefore my rate of learning was slower than I wanted, and I felt I wasn't getting the enjoyment out of it that I would have if I put in more practice. Not only that, but when I was online I was a total noob. I kept crashing (can't watch the bad guys AND the ground!), or doing stilly stuff. I therefore decided that although I wasn't a menace, I would be better off leaving it until I had the time and the necessary dedication to fly properly. Now I play X-Plane (7, not 8 yet) offline for my own pleasure. I can fly, use most of the instuments most of the time, and each time I fly I get better at something. That motivates me more than bumming along not getting better at all.

One day, when I'm perfect at LFS, X-Plane and IL2 (fat chance, cos you can ALWAYS drive a better lap, or do a better landing) then I'll give it up.

@tristan

the reason i drive LfS is, that i love motorsports - especially touring/sportscar racing. never were a huge formula/karting fan and probably never will be, but if it is a car that can be seen on the open roads occasionaly (or at least if it looks like it) then i love it

i don'T have the money to drive real races. just drove a few laps on hockenheim, which is close to my home, on the publich track days - that's probably the closest i'll ever get to racing in real life.

LfS is the cheapest way for me to do motor sports - and even if i don't have the greatest talent, i still love the sport and the feeling of actually being in a car on track - a feeling only a good simulation can give you. that'S why i do love LfS and not some game probably easier to get good results

the results aren't my main reason to be here. as long as i see myself improving over a period of time and learning new cars, new tracks and new car/track combos, i'm perfectly fine with that.

sure, i'd love to be within a second of the WR everywhere, but if i'm away 109% and cand find a quick way to get any closer, it doesn't bother me that much - i just keep trying to make it 108.9%

if i had enough money to stop thinking about if i could afford it, i'D probably racing in the VLN and the youngtimer-trophy by now - and would probably not have a slight chance of winning, but still trying to achieve the best in every race and to get better in every lap

and i really wouldn't care if there was an easier to drive car or a quicker to learn sort of motorsport, because these cars are my passion and i do it for the love of the cars and the racing. as long as i try to get the best out of my skill level and do not drive reckless/respect the other (faster AND slower) drivers, i think i should be treated with the same respect..

unfortunately this respect towards honest and fair but slow racers is kind of missing - that was the reason for the very good 'be nice to newbies'-thread over at RSC

and as you said

Quote :

Most online races are fun, but occasionally spoiled by ignorant people tootling around without a care in the world (mistakes not wishstanding).

if only SOME races are spoiled OCCASIONALLY, then why on earth is everyone (right now in 3 different threads including a poll) calling for a way to keep the wreckers out? and i didn't mean you (tristan) here - you were just explaining your viewpoint - i mean the tons of posters talking like it's impossible to drive half a mile without being wrecked by someone else

there are some strange idiots wrecking everyone on the track because it seems to be funny for them, then there are the reckless drivers, which often are quite fast and drive like they own the track - often complaining about the slower ones being wreckers, because they do not leave the track once they come flying by, try to overtake them on the right side, while another guy is attempting the same manouver on the left side at the same time and then blame the slow guys for any accidents that might happen - and then there are the slower ones that can't control the car properly and cause accidents because they lose control or forget about breaking - but from what i've seen, the last part of the group is the one causing the least accidents of them all

i guess we both do have some shared viewpoints - maybe even most of our views here. you're just one of the few that writes enough to answer/argue with, because the usual 'yes i've been wrecked 5 times yesterday' or 'yes please help us get rid of those wreckers' isn't really useful and worth answering

Quote from tristancliffe :

Yes thats a good point. But I think you've missed my meaning of elitist.

I think you are right, I must have.
And since I agree with everything else you wrote I can't see a reason to go on arguing with you

/Steve

LOL Steve

The thing is I know exactly what I mean in my head. And I admit I have strong opinions, and I am not afraid of airing them. The tricky bit is getting you to understand my ramblings, as text based, non-real time communication makes it quite difficult.

Quote from DasKlee :

as long as i see myself improving over a period of time and learning new cars, new tracks and new car/track combos, i'm perfectly fine with that.

And in one fell swoop you fall into my 'good' category


I know what I want LFS to be like, and I'm sure it differs from how you all want it to turn out (and in turn you all differ from one another - it's called personal opinions).

I don't enjoy arguing. I don't enjoy being flamed. I don't write what I write to get attention. I'd much rather be friends with everyone. At the moment there is another thread where I think JeffR's post, whilst good to read and informative, come across to me as being negative. But it's not a personal thing, and I enjoy being able to discuss the issue with him. But because of the limitations of the text based communitcation I think both of us have come across are rather more aggressive about the points we're making to each other (and other people are thinking we hate each other!).

Indeed Tristan I totally agree with you now too.... funny how much TEXT it takes for humans to understand each other

.... where oh where did my avatar go.....

Wow it only took about 6 long posts, and now two people don't hate me. Whooooooo!!!

Quote from Fonnybone :

From my experience in this community, i doubt the LFS devs would take
the 'nazi-elite' approach and punish or keep people out. Making sales is
much higher on their list than parenting some unknown troublemaker
Unless he starts annoying the devs personally, i doubt they'd turn on
a paying/potential customer. That's just my opinion though.

That would be a bit of a skewed approach, if that 1 unknown troublemaker keeps annoying people and is ignored, it will put people off the sim, meaning they wont want to play it and wont buy it.

I am very close to just switching to R-factor or just giving up all together, i have been totally unable to have a good close race with anyone on a public server without some muppet ruining the race and/or being abusive.

If things dont improve alot i wont be bothering with S3, so its in everyones interests to get it sorted! Harsher banning would be the simple solution, even if its just 30-60 days at a time to stop people saying "i paid for it so i should be able to play it"

It would give them time to practice offline.

I really can't believe so many people are having problems with wreckers. Sure, I see them occasionally, but not what I would call often. I played for about 6 hours last night. We had one wrecker on the server when we were playing the demo version of the game (my friend hadn't bought yet). I banned him from the server and he came back about 15 minutes later under a different name. I banned him again and that was that. He never came back. About an hour later my friend ponied up the money for S2 full so I changed my server from Demo to S2. We had no more wreckers the whole night (4-5 hours of play). We had one drifter join the server but he didn't cause any trouble and left after we asked him to race properly or leave. Nobody else caused any trouble. Sure, there were a few wrecks, but they weren't intentional. Wrecks are just part of the sport.

It doesn't seem like wreckers are much of a problem to me, so long as we take care of the few people trying to intentionally spoil other's game. If we just perma-ban them on the first offense the problem will take care of itself. I'm still in favor of a centralized ban list for server admins who wish to take part.

Quote from boxer :

lol are you denying penalties for those offences do not exist? How is it not more realistic?

I just looked at my quote of your statement and had not trimmed it appropriately. I was referring purely to the blue flag, for which I have not seen any penalty in any race i've watched. I've seen penalties for blocking and for improper passes, but not for not yielding the line during a blue flag situation. Could be I don't watch enough racing, but from the definition of the blue flag, i don't see how a purely advisory flag could yield a penalty.

The rest of the flag penalties, I agree would be realistic and useful. Except that many of those situations are human judgement calls and hard to execute well in code.

In F1 the drivers can get a penalty for 'ignoring' blue flags. But I think thats only in F1 where the prima-donna drivers haven't realised that lapping is a skill not a right. I say get rid of blue flag penalties and make the drivers THINK about lapping, rather than diving for a gap knowing if they touch if the lapped drives fault.

Oh, and get rid of semi-automatic gearboxes too and give the drivers something to do