No. What I'm trying to say is that a platform game would be awesome if it wasn't like a weird dressed tomb raider in a mall type of thing. Second life and psn home are nothing more than a "virtual reality world" type of games that is imho nothing more than an idea from the early 90s when people were trying to imagine what kind of games we would play in internet in future in our webbrowsers. Essentially it is just one way to make platform games.

In a way games like psn home and second like are platform games but not all platform games are like psn home or second life. just like lfs and iracing are online games and racing games but not all racing or online games are like lfs or iracing.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Call me old fashioned but I remember when people played games for fun. Remember fun? Fun was great. Now we've got progress bars and gamers are more concerned with using their time efficiently than having fun. Ridiculous.

He actually has a point. I know people getting to the max level in SWOTOR just to show off their e-penis. People are just that sad, and MMOs are worse than heroin for that kind of people.

Quote from BurnOut69 :

He actually has a point. I know people getting to the max level in SWOTOR just to show off their e-penis. People are just that sad, and MMOs are worse than heroin for that kind of people.

Like most modern MMO the Star Wars game is pretty easy, progress relates mostly to time invested. Faster progress can be achieved by blitzing through the content that you don't stop to enjoy the one good thing about it, which is the cut scenes and plot lines.

I played a Sith Warrior of the dual lightsabre weilding DPS variety up to, errr, somewhere in the 40s I think, I have no idea what the game goes up too. Anyway, I can only liken the game play mechanic to the MMO equivalent of Guitar Hero. An attack lights up, you press it. As a Sith you have to balance your "rage", but that was totally trivial - you hit your rage generation attack when you needed it - and then just hit your big attacks whenever they light up.

I can think of another game like that...


I enjoyed the plot lines, but they were not enough to justify the monthly fee.

Anyone who plays a game like that through to the highest level has social development issues.

It is my view that the game was designed by somebody who had played a melee class in World of Warcraft up to about level 30 and had no idea about team work or group dynamics. They had tried an MMO for a little bit and thought they had the measure of it and then mistakenly believed that gave them free license to design the biggest MMO to be released in the last few years.

If I hadn't paid so much money for the game in the first place I would laugh about it.

One of the greatest online-games is of course Counter Strike. Do you know why it's so good? It's simple, everybody can understand it in no time. It's skill-based, you don't get perks and shit, everybody has the same chance to kill the other player. It runs on a calculator and the graphics are simple enough to get the job done.

also aim for teamwork/strategy. Becky keep us updated on how it goes, would be cool to try it when youve got something put together.

Quote from Mustangman759 :

Becky keep us updated on how it goes

Sure thing, I'm sure it'll get posted here at various points. I wouldn't expect anything too soon though, I just did market research and am now in planning - and having to do a spot of overtime in the day job too so couldn't get in to any detail tonight as I was just too tired.

Did find this sketch online though which was exactly what I was looking for, I would expect to see something in 3D of this nature soon: http://www.manatee.k12.fl.us/s ... tary/samoset/chichen2.jpg

Seems pretty cool, it doesnt have to be that extravagant to start either. Maybe also allow people to open stores and craft items for sale

Quote from Mustangman759 :

Seems pretty cool, it doesnt have to be that extravagant to start either. Maybe also allow people to open stores and craft items for sale

What did you have in mind when you said "opening stories" ?

I think some kind of crafting is inevitable as it goes hand in hand with the loot system, but i'm not sure how far I will take it.

Quote from Becky Rose :

What did you have in mind when you said "opening stories" ?

I think some kind of crafting is inevitable as it goes hand in hand with the loot system, but i'm not sure how far I will take it.

stores not stories, ie pay XXX coins per week and a opening cost to open a store which you craft and sell from, also allows others to work for you and possibly pay them wages? sounded better in my head... :P

Quote from Becky Rose :

Like most modern MMO the Star Wars game is pretty easy, progress relates mostly to time invested. Faster progress can be achieved by blitzing through the content that you don't stop to enjoy the one good thing about it, which is the cut scenes and plot lines.

And since when did cutscenes constitute a game? They are short films. I've noticed the proportion of games where no action is required on the part of the player has been rising in recent years. Studios all want to create a 'cinematic' experience - if I wanted a cinematic experience I would go to the cinema, where's the game I paid for? Why am I sitting here watching a hundred melodramatic short films about bull-necked men with massive guns? And this game is rated 18, so why was the dialogue written for 10 year olds?

And quite often - as you've pointed out - the actual 'game' component involves pressing a button when the game instructs you to press it. This isn't interaction, it's subordination.

Games these days really **** me off.

Quote from Nadeo4441 :

One of the greatest online-games is of course Counter Strike. Do you know why it's so good? It's simple, everybody can understand it in no time. It's skill-based, you don't get perks and shit, everybody has the same chance to kill the other player. It runs on a calculator and the graphics are simple enough to get the job done.

But it's also possible to get much better at it. It's genuinely skill-based.

Like LFS. Simple concept, everybody understands it, but doing it well enough to win races is hard.

The progress involved isn't an abstract process of lighting up a bar until your character get +1 Macho Sixpack, it's actual progress - you get better.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

And since when did cutscenes constitute a game? They are short films. I've noticed the proportion of games where no action is required on the part of the player has been rising in recent years. Studios all want to create a 'cinematic' experience - if I wanted a cinematic experience I would go to the cinema, where's the game I paid for? Why am I sitting here watching a hundred melodramatic short films about bull-necked men with massive guns? And this game is rated 18, so why was the dialogue written for 10 year olds?

And quite often - as you've pointed out - the actual 'game' component involves pressing a button when the game instructs you to press it. This isn't interaction, it's subordination.

Games these days really **** me off.

I understand you perfectly, sadly, we are the minority these days.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

And since when did cutscenes constitute a game? They are short films. I've noticed the proportion of games where no action is required on the part of the player has been rising in recent years. Studios all want to create a 'cinematic' experience

I am going to find myself in the unusual, and slightly uncomfortable, position of defending the Star Wars MMO here - because in the Star Wars game specifically (and this does not necessarily apply to other games) these scenes are interactive and have consequences outside of the cut scene, they are extremely well done and are character driven.

They're all voice acted, and put together very well indeed and served not only to build atmosphere but also to develop character arc.

I was really enjoying this aspect of the Star Wars game, it was everything else that let it down.

Don't see anything wrong with cut scene's, there have been many games that focus on telling a story, kind of like a film or book but the direction the story takes is decided by the player. No reason a game involving skill can't also do this but the story needs to be a good one and it adds to the art work which is by far the biggest expense in any up to date game.

Much has been said about grinding and leveling, biggest problem I have here is when it isn't restricted. This creates an unlimited difference between players, a more subtle issue is this also hides imbalance between classes. DAoC was ruined by this, Regnum is styled on DAoC and it took years to get balance close to evenly matched while keeping level restrictions. Something worth checking out is Little Wars by H G Wells, it was written 99 years ago and is about grown men (and women) playing with toy soldiers. It got a lot of interest which evolved into Dungeons and Dragons and continued through to the MMORPG genre we have now. Funny thing is the 2nd chapter describes trying to balance out the game and many of the issues from it are still issues in MMORPG's today

Quote from stan.distortion :

Don't see anything wrong with cut scene's, there have been many games that focus on telling a story, kind of like a film or book but the direction the story takes is decided by the player. No reason a game involving skill can't also do this but the story needs to be a good one and it adds to the art work which is by far the biggest expense in any up to date game.

If players like this, yes it can work. If you have a person who would rather watch a movie, it doesn't.
Perfect example is L.A. Noire. A friend of mine loved this game (read: interactive movie), i hated it with a passion.

Probably a game that allows you to use creativity (Garry's mod, Eve Online) To shape the world the player is in, I'd say a player created world would probably be the best thing, Since gamers know what gamers like. (But Bethesda probably came closest to capturing all gamer types with Skyrim.)

Quote from stan.distortion :

Don't see anything wrong with cut scene's, there have been many games that focus on telling a story, kind of like a film or book but the direction the story takes is decided by the player. No reason a game involving skill can't also do this but the story needs to be a good one

I'm struggling to think of a computer game with a good story. And even those that attempt to have a good story usually have it mocked by the preposterous nature of the gameplay.

Gamers aren't interested in good stories, they want shit stories about emotionless superhuman men who save the universe. Or at least that's what they seem to want.

The feeling of self-improvement more than anything else. No matter how many laps I do, there is always something to be found. Once I thought the perfection was reachable.

With every new race I get to know myself better, as a racer and therefor chase for the perfect performance can never stop.

Now, just racing against myself is fun, but when you add competition to that, the thrill raises sky-high, because you always have a benchmark. The great thing about competition is that sometimes it can make you push your limits a bit further to get in place where you can challenge for victory.

The event itself is something special. It's always a constant struggle with your nerves and putting everything together to avoid mistakes with competition that always looks how to make it even more challenging for you. But sometimes, only sometimes you get that adrenaline rush and you wonder off somewhere where you never expected to be, where everything is easy as hell.

The great thing about CTRA was that we had a rank, which gives the purpose to it all. Victory in itself is great, but challenge to be the best is where the real fun is.

Oh I see you asked Gaming, not racing / sim-racing... Well in that case I'd assume leveling up or whatever. I've almost never played anything else online. I find those MMORPG things just too dorky and CS is like ok yeah it's fun, half an hour later, riiiight this is getting boring, don't see myself coming back ever here again.

You do realise Kev that once I release a demo I'm going to have to pay you off so you aren't publicly pessimistic about it :P

Offtopic:

Quote from thisnameistaken :

And since when did cutscenes constitute a game? They are short films. I've noticed the proportion of games where no action is required on the part of the player has been rising in recent years. Studios all want to create a 'cinematic' experience - if I wanted a cinematic experience I would go to the cinema, where's the game I paid for? Why am I sitting here watching a hundred melodramatic short films about bull-necked men with massive guns? And this game is rated 18, so why was the dialogue written for 10 year olds?

I somehow read that in Yatzee's voice from Zero Punctuation.

Ontopic:
Almost everything about motivation in games derives from the skinner-box discussion so I'm not going to repeat that. I'd just like to point out that a game designer should always treat number inflation in terms of levels and stats completely separate from player advancement in terms of knowledge about his environment and the gameplay mechanics and execution of the gameplay.

It is completely valid to use number inflation to open up gameplay content gradually in order to always give the player just enough new content to maintain a sense of discovery without making him feel lost. One typical way of doing this is restricting complex magic-systems to higher levels. That way the player can gradually learn about what the specific resistance-stats actually do one after the other.
On the other hand you should also very consciously think about what level of player-skill you expect at what point. You intuitively wouldn't put the hardest fight of the game in the tutorial, but you need to think well about what skills the player must learn and master at what stage. Some Castlevania games did this very well. You started out fighting against almost static zombies and ended up evading multiple types of flying enemies and projectiles near the end. The original Super Mario Brothers is also an example of this gradual growth of both mechanics and difficulty.

@Shotglass:
I'm an avid follower of Extra Credits. Anyone who wants to design games should be forced to sit through the whole series. Many disasters would be averted.

Vain

Quote from stan.distortion :

Don't see anything wrong with cut scene's, there have been many games that focus on telling a story, kind of like a film or book but the direction the story takes is decided by the player.

the problem is games are neither films nore books (square enix in particular seem to have difficulty grasping this) and as such should not be entirely made up of cutscenes
one of the games that was successful at telling a story was halflife and it did so with iirc just 1 sequence that was strictly a cutscene and about 4is that were cutscenes in a wider sense

Quote from Vain :

I somehow read that in Yatzee's voice from Zero Punctuation.

how is that even possible in a paragraph that has 8ish pieces of punctuation in it?

Quote from TehPaws3D :

Probably a game that allows you to use creativity (Garry's mod, Eve Online) To shape the world the player is in, I'd say a player created world would probably be the best thing, Since gamers know what gamers like. (But Bethesda probably came closest to capturing all gamer types with Skyrim.)

Truedat

Quote from Becky Rose :

You do realise Kev that once I release a demo I'm going to have to pay you off so you aren't publicly pessimistic about it :P

I would never want to discourage people from bunging me money but I appreciate that an indie game is a different proposition to a big-budget studio title.

In a way I would expect more from you than from them (because you don't have to profit so you can concentrate on making a fun game rather than a 'SPECTACULAZORZ OMFG LOOK AT TEH SCREENIEZ #PREORDERED' game) but at the same time you've got a much harder job and much less time to do it, so you wouldn't be deserving of the same criticism.

The main thing that irritates me about computer games these days is the way the medium is so slow to develop and the way it's already entrenched in genre because the studios don't have two testicles to rub together. So when I see that several years and millions in development funding have only managed to produce yet another FPS with childish cutscenes and gameplay elements cherry-picked from whatever was the last big seller I get pretty miserable about it.

Especially when you think about what those millions in R&D could achieve in terms of natural language development and other important AI problems. Gaming could be doing pioneering computing stuff too, but it isn't, because the industry is rotten.

2 cent mode:

Excluding LFS and racing sims, i don't like online gaming much, because it's mostly no fun. MP games have become too dull and similar to each other. When you go online then, in a game of certain genre, which you prefer, you find yourself thinking: "I've been there... oh wait, it's bloody re-vamp of that xxx from yyy years ago!".
I know, it's like with Hollywood movies, it might be hard to find something fresh and new + moneymilking factor doesn't support creativity, investors don't like to pour their money into uncertain projects, but playing basically the same over and over again isn't fun. And for me, MP game needs to be really creative and different, to get me interested.

I enjoy good singleplayer with at least over-average story games much more. Uncharted trilogy, Portals, Half-Life, Mass Effect etc. The story changes, gives you different twists and keeps you planted in front of your PC for hours. In MP you get nothing.
I might also be just me, i'm not very competitive, so i get bored quickly with generic MP action.

Only MP game (again, LFS excluded), that i'm slightly addicted to, is TF2. It's something else, than your usual shooter.

/2 cent mode

Quote from thisnameistaken :

And since when did cutscenes constitute a game? They are short films. I've noticed the proportion of games where no action is required on the part of the player has been rising in recent years. Studios all want to create a 'cinematic' experience - if I wanted a cinematic experience I would go to the cinema, where's the game I paid for? Why am I sitting here watching a hundred melodramatic short films about bull-necked men with massive guns? And this game is rated 18, so why was the dialogue written for 10 year olds?

I've always explained this to myself so that games are going through the same development as movies once did. Movies were considered as light entertainment with light topics and generally as more time passed more serious themed movies started to appear when the movie makers started to understand what they were doing. Also movies and books are far more similar media than books, movies and games which makes taking the next steps harder with games.

In a way I think tv scifi and fantasy series and movies are in the same phase with games as a whole when looking at the writing and target groups. Clearly most of is written to young viewers which is really as for an adult scifi fan like me... But tv series like games of thrones fill me confidence that the current situation is going to eventually improve.

I honestly think though that we don't know yet how to make serious adult themed games and how take the full benefit of the special abilities that games have. Game studios tend to try to solve these problems by bringing in writers and content creators from movie and literature business which is why we still get tons of interactive movies and books instead of proper games. Plus with the photorealistic graphics becoming closer and closer to becoming real it is just inevitable that the interactive movies will make their 2nd coming. Sad truth is that good graphics sell because of hundreds of people get an erection all around the world when they see perfectly round tits in a game.

With games our starting point was that games were designed for 8 year olds. From there we start to develop to more adult and higher level themes. With the pressures from a media it is a long journey though because the decision makers still see the games as children's pastime which directly translates into financial risk for the game studios when they try to release a game with adult themes and get bad rep and screaming parent posting oninw how these sick people should be put to jail for ruining our children's lives etc.. Then big game sellers make decisions not to sell these kind of games just to keep these angry know-it-all parents as their customers.

As much as it about not knowing or not wanting to do proper adult themed games it is also very much about the financial risks that keep our games dumbed down.