Yesterday during our newly SaTurDay-eve event (only STD cars), somebody with an S2 license got caught with speed hacking (see attached replay; 4min55 and on other places).

I thought this wasn't possible anymore with CPW protection and stuff?

What if it gets so sophisticated that it's almost undetectable for the human eye? What if it already IS?

This is endangering online racing.

* edit ... Oh crap.. Max MPR limit is 2 Mb.

Well it's here; http://www.cargame.nl/dl.php?id=355925 but you only can download it if you use the link in a new window.

IIRC speedhacking is done by altering the variable that holds the car's speed directly in the memory. Ever since CheatEngine every kid can do that. I don't think there is anything that can be done about this except for some memory encryption or continuous memory randomization.

Based on the fact that this is allowed to happen, I'll assume the server doesn't run any physics at all. So an "easy" fix is that the server could be less dumb and actually run physics steps to make sure that the data from the client is completely trustworthy. It would make the server heavier, but worth it if cheating is a big issue.

The alternative is an insim client that performs the calculation steps based on the coordinate and time delta between 2 MCI compcar packets for a particular racer. Combine that with knowing what vehicle they're racing with (and knowing the maximum m/s for a particular vehicle) you've effectively got a very dumb, server side only, anti-cheat system.

You can go further, but you effective start implementing the LFS physics system.

Quote from the_angry_angel :

(and knowing the maximum m/s for a particular vehicle)

It's not the maximum what is the problem but the acceleration. Due to height differences and draft technics, it's not very easy to just let a system decide if somebody is cheating (I think).

Besides, if this is possible with memory alteration... What about changing tire temperatures for optimum grip?

Quote from the_angry_angel :

-snip-

Somewhat relevant discussion/ideas here.

ban/kick/spec might be too harsh in certain cases where exceeding the maxSpeed/maxAcc for a certain car, which might've been triggered by lag or contact with another car/object.

In that case, the code should take into account if there was contact just prior to exceeding maxSpeed/maxAcc

A simple enough could would output a text line into the chat stating that the "X racer has exceeded maximum possible speed/acc for Y car". That would be enough for others to have a look and determine if it is indeed a hack or not.

Edit: Nevermind, you've already posted there :P

There has always been the question if anyone has ever made their car only slightly faster by cheating.

It's undetectable and can be confused with racing skill.

Wonder if hackers realise that it's easely recognisable by that certain click on the sound...

what makes it worse is that so many talk openly about it; just because others are not racing doesn't mean their afk, some of us are just laughing and resisting recording as we dont need victor or scrawen doing on a banage ( ban rampage ) and looking like bad guys for upholding the rules...

imho: info such as memory should be salted and hashed but its not the easist thing to do in the world...

So much for stereotypical indian spiritual clarity.

Quote from Rhama :

edit: and cargame lol u smartass just deserve what's happening because u are as unfair, as speedhackers ) think about it for a second.

Unfair, of course I am unfair. What has that got to do with speed hacking? Who are you anyway?

Quote :

Raced: 10.07.2010 16:40 Laps: 21 (9363/15659)

Quote from Rhama :

The fact is u just can't avoid someone who wants to cheat with hacks and does it cleanly, 1% more grip, 1% more engine power, 1% weight etc, i challenge you to spot that on a replay

Empty words my Indian friend, empty words.

Quote from Rhama :

hackers are the cause on s3 being delayed, we wont give you any attention"

Even more empty words.

Boeddha likes that?

Quote from MadCatX :

IIRC speedhacking is done by altering the variable that holds the car's speed directly in the memory. Ever since (a cheat program) every kid can do that. I don't think there is anything that can be done about this except for some memory encryption or continuous memory randomization.

I tried this...

Values you modify in LFS client memory gets verified with the host server as soon as you try to join the track.

So it's not possible at all to use (a cheat program) or any other program to alter car characteristics and getting away with it on a normal server.

However this chrisdirt person still found a way to do so.

Now I see what is possible I am fully against this modified server=yes crap. Because it actually promotes finding ways for cheating. I wonder why Scawen/Victor allowed to do this. History proves that races don't get any better with altered values (think back @LMP MoE testing and altered GTR values, called GT0 series).

So stop the allowance of modified servers, it's getting exploited instead of used.

Quote from cargame.nl :

Now I see what is possible I am fully against this modified server=yes crap. Because it actually promotes finding ways for cheating. I wonder why Scawen/Victor allowed to do this. History proves that races don't get any better with altered values (think back @LMP MoE testing and altered GTR values, called GT0 series).

So stop the allowance of modified servers, it's getting exploited instead of used.

You never joined our modified LX races then, they were great.

The fact remains though...hacks exist that make it hard to tell if a person is cheating or not. This means that any league admin has doubts about whether or not people are cheating in their races, and any racer has doubts about whether the people beating them are cheating or not.

It is not a good state for the game to be in.

Quote from Rhama :

so mr cargame needs little rememberance :
u banned my 999 from ur servers for using hack on my own tweak server
what a bold move it was. roflo
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1476199#post1476199

Oh right... I see it now in the 80 member banlist. I'm not looking at that every day. You are almost half way the 999 .

I stick with my decision. You was actively hacking when the modified=yes flag didn't even existed back then. Because you did that publicly you showed other (demo) racers what was possible and that is promoting of cheating.

That you do not get that, is your problem. Not mine.

Same problem exist nowadays, this modified=yes servers are a gathering of people to find ways to cheat on legal servers in LFS.

Quote from cargame.nl :

Same problem exist nowadays, this modified=yes servers are a gathering of people to find ways to cheat on legal servers in LFS.

Do you really think there'd be less cheaters if the modified flag didn't exist? This way the modders have a playground where they can run their hacked stuff and stay away from serious racers. You're also discounting hacks that can't be detected by any kind of currently used CPW. Do you know a game where cheating was completely eliminated by an ultrasmart anticheating system? I don't...

Cheating is not a technical but a moral problem. If there is someone pathetic enough to run some sort of exploit to win races, I honestly feel sorry for such a person - what kind of pleasure can one possibly have from that is beyond me. You can't write an algorithm to make people think straight...

Quote from MadCatX :

Do you know a game where cheating was completely eliminated by an ultrasmart anticheating system? I don't...

Hmm I actually never tried Iracing but some say it's not possible because it haz no force view mode.

Quote from MadCatX :

This way the modders have a playground where they can run their hacked stuff and stay away from serious racers.

And discussing more ways to hack and forming a community to share those ideas more actively and thoroughly, yes.

iRacing can detect "(a cheat program)" if that's what you want to hear.

Quote from cargame.nl :

And discussing more ways to hack and forming a community to share those ideas more actively and thoroughly, yes.

Like modders weren't a community long before LFS introduced the possibility of running modified servers "legally." Discussion of ways to mod things can be very educational and informative for some people BTW...

Do you have an actual proposal what should or could be done, or are you just trying to get this everlasting problem some extra attention?

Rhama go take a chillpill



Someone had to say it.

Where is the insult exactly and why didn't you use the !-function for that?

The only one insulting is you;

Quote from Rhama :

may those speedhackers bite what's left in your pants while you sleep )

Which actually is absolutely hilarious because I am a 2 meter tall European and well... India.. Do I need to go on, proportions and stuff?

Don't think so.

But I didn't want to reply on that, because it's leading to nowhere .. These sentences are used by people which run out of arguments.

Quote from Rhama :

you are scared of people gathering and exchanging knowledge, doesnt this smell quite foul ?

Nah, not scared but why make it easier.

Nobody is selling nuclear warheads and rockets to Iran or NK too, do they?

Thats what you did here on LFS and presumably do; actively feeding terrorism. I don't like your face because of that and I excluded you from my servers. That is not unfair because I pay for it, not you. You are very arrogant into thinking that somebody else which is running services must accept you at all times.

Now.. Again what I am worried about are the people like chrisdirt which can't find out on their own how to cheat, come to your server and maybe even offer money (I see that happen too on other games). Thats all very shady business. Your business maybe. Thats very bad karma, OK?

Will inform Boeddha about this thread. Over and out.

edit: Will up this thread again if I have fresh MPR's.

.

Cheating should be encouraged, as theres know one else to race against any more as the servers ara empty & if you get beat you can say they cheated. this sim is dead.

@ the devs youve ruined a great sim with a serious lack of information & poor marketing. Christmas post was a joke This was the straw that broke the camels back for many. Iracing took many away & the rest have now gone to Rf2, which leaves you with all the people with 10 yrs old pc's & some aliens with a reputation they dont want to lose.

On a plus people should keep the demo s2 giveaways competions going because know ones buying them anymore & if they did they would go straight back to using demo serverss as S1 & S2 are ghost towns.
What a bloooooody shame, i love lfs but if theres know one to race whats point.

The only way I know to really remove physics cheat is cloud gaming.

If the physics runs locally, sooner or later cheats happen.

Quote from Keling :

The only way I know to really remove physics cheat is cloud gaming.

If the physics runs locally, sooner or later cheats happen.

Example: World of Tanks. But it's not an option for LFS, because it requires instant response.

Quote from Sobis :

Example: World of Tanks. But it's not an option for LFS, because it requires instant response.

There are still some client-side hacks for WoT sadly, that's why tracers aren't fully back yet.

It's been a while since I last raced on demo. Today I banned 9 people for cheating, before few months there been not more than 1 cheater per week.
So whats the problem? 0.6B version is long enough to spread all possible cheats in community
How to fix that? making game update every few months, I'm not talking about new content, etc. but just to change addresses in memory to this stuff that is used to hack. This updates could be done automaticly, that player don't notice anything, simply while connecting to master server.