Irony is that's exactly how it feels for people who've never driven a Corvette GT1/GT2 OR a race car at all. I find it very odd how iracing staff themselves let it filter through their net when it feels so bad and the majority of sim racers mirror the opinion of real racers.
I certainly hope so. Why the hell would they stop you from buying a gift card? It goes in the same pot at the end of the day.
Well I just tried Mustang on Oulton park and that was amazingly fun. I could actually feel what the car is doing, and you can really attack the brakes.
Does it have the NTM?
Does it have the NTM?
No it doesn't.
"Sim racers only feel the wheel and have nothing outside of that. They don't know what a real race car feels like, therefore their statement is invalid."
"Real racers are use to feeling their car through G's, therefore when they race on a sim they lose all that feeling and always think something is missing".
Heh.
Can't, tried so many times.
The feeling of a car isn't just the FFB, it's the reletive movement that you see on the screen aswell. If your input doesn't match or correlate to what's happening on screen then you don't have the feeling.
Besides, some of the cars on NTM don't even feel like cars at all (they feel more like two front wheels and two balls for rear wheels) and we all know what cars feel like to drive.
It's naiive to assume that driving a road car has no relevance at all to how you feel a car at the limit because at the end of the day physics don't change from car to car. Physics are unchangeable. The physics behind a rubber tyre and the road fundamentally stay the same no matter what the scenario. So, yes I believe that the majority of sim racers can understand physics. That's why iRacing feels better than NFS in most cases. Just because we've not driven at 180mph through Eau Rouge doesn't mean that we don't know the reality of driving on the limit.
tl;dr
In a sense a race car is just a scaled up version of a road car, more grip, more speed, more aero.
So a road car definately has relevance to simracing, the feeling of understeer, oversteer are the same in every car, it's only the characteristics of the car that dictate the scenario they don't dictate the physics.
Are those quotes from iR staff? If so that's dreadfully pathetic and unresearched.
see Todd's posts about how the users of his RC sim can "feel" the cars both in real life and through the sim. He had a whole soliloquy about how we humans can adapt our senses through visual means when using input tech, and I do believe what he says. There's a lot more to it than those vastly ignorant quotes you posted try to convey!
While in an esoteric sense that might be true, that scaling causes a lot more changes just like driving a go-cart is nothing like driving a road car. Same physics, different scaling, and different enough outputs that they don't really relate well in terms of intuition. So yes, even though you may have driven on the limit, it doesn't mean you have a clue what it's like doing so at 180MPH in a car with 4 times the power, 1/2 the weight, and 1.5x the mechanical grip through tires alone lest you forget the variable of downforce altogether!
I kind of see what you're getting at but it's only partially true.
The quotes were simply the ignorant ones you can find on the forum when a real life driver says something bad about iRacing. Most from when a real life driver says the car over the limit is just dead, which IMO is true. Matt Bell for example actually quoted LFS to being one of the better sims (when on slicks) for being able to correct a slide compared to real life. He compared it to the GT's in iR, and the HPD. That thread turned into a disaster.
Another one in the NTM discussion thread on their forum is currently on its 28th page. The first 10 pages was just bashing a guy who also drives GTs and commented on the NTM.
In the end, when you have to think differently when driving in real life and in a sim, you know something isn't right. All sims are like this (else we'd have a realistic one correct?), and many handle vastly different in certain situations. Most of the unrealistic situations comes from the faulty setups we are running, but that is another topic that would take forever to talk about.
I understood everything you've said but basically my jist is, it doesn't matter if you've driven a race prep car or not, you'll KNOW what feels unrealistic. Which iRacing does on the NTM for road cars.
@PMD
It doesn't matter what car you drive, it's still subjected to the same exterior forces like gravity, air resistance and inertial forces.
Interms of setup acrediting for unrealistic handling, in a way I agree but if the NTM isn't realistically feeling in the first place then setup changes accounting for that is irrelevant.
I don't mean to sound like a tw@ here but I think alot of race drivers discredit sims because they don't want everyone and their dog thinking they can do the same job and some. So when a real life racer critisizes a sim I take it with a pinch of salt, although in this case I don't, I fully agree with it.
What if the race driver is criticizing one and applauding another? There isn't always an alterior motive. Some actually want to enjoy some racing in a virtual world when not running in the real world. That or some would actually like to be able to use the sim as a training tool, however if it isn't replicating real life properly, then it would be deemed useless.
You can learn tracks via some games to learn layout and rythym but other than that yes, it's useless.
Tend to agree. It's a cliche that anyone can get close to top RL racers' times, but it's that little extra that's so hard and separates the talented ones from the rest. A lot of that is about being able to feel subtle changes in the car that even the drivers themselves can't consciously describe. I've heard top instructors talking about sneaking info into students unconscious minds when their guard is down.Really, you have as much chance of learning how to drive on the limit in RL from sitting infront of a computer as you have learning to balance your body on a tight- rope by playing with a computer animation thereof. Totally different thing. Sims can be useful training, but aren't going to give you the stuff where real talent comes to bare.
Also, it should be bloody obvious the sim is wrong for the following reasons:
A real racer turns up at a track he's not been to for a year (or ever). It has changing grip levels due to rubbering in, heat, weather etc. but within half an hour he's driving on the limit safely. And top drivers are doing lap records.
Conversely, in iRacing it's a static environment, people do thousands more laps with a lot of trial and error. Yet they'll spin off at speeds that'd embarrass a novice in real life. Look for example at the WR Radical laps around the Ring. A bumpy cambered surface but they're sawing at the wheel without concern. If it were like iRacing you'd die driving like that as it requires such a precise and 'predictive' driving style (e.g. you have to learn to pre-emptively counter-steer or balance the throttle because last time it spat you off the track into the wall somewhere for no apparent reason). There's not way you could be bouncing around in a noisy, smelly environment that's a real race car yet maintain such precise measured inputs. Not to mention half of iRacers have to drive into bends with one foot on the throttle or they'll spin out anyway! If the inputs are so different - and they plainly are - then it's not simulating very well.
Although I have an iRacing membership I have happily avoided their forums for some time now. Do they really just shoot down any criticism of the physics? Has there ever been a proper, well educated debate over what iRacing does and doesn't do well or do they just say 'cool story bro but you're wrong' to everyone that tries to speak out against them?
Actually, why the hell should they care about what's on their forums anyway? It's not like any criticism of their tyre model would be visible to the public, since you have to subscribe to their stupid service to even look at their forums.
Actually, why the hell should they care about what's on their forums anyway? It's not like any criticism of their tyre model would be visible to the public, since you have to subscribe to their stupid service to even look at their forums.
Well they pay so much that they can go into denial and whatever doubts people say about iRacing will be shot down because of it. When it comes to admitting the flaws in the physics, only thing they tend to say is what the staff has said, which is that the sidewalls of the tires are not stiff enough. The low speed ice is a far second. The fall off debate is slowly dying because some actually believe now that the tires fall off realistically.
We are running the hardest of hard tires, yet running incredible lap times. The other day in the F1 forum a DWC driver made a joke about the car (f-zero). It was funny, yet the staff member just got butt hurt and criticized him for it, saying the F1 tire is probably the best they have. If that is true, then that is very, very sad. We are pulling over 7Gs in some high speed corners with the stupid amounts of grip, yet low speed grip is bad. Then add the fact we have to use high downforce everywhere to be fast. Oh and don't forget the high slip angles.
In short, its a joke.
We are running the hardest of hard tires, yet running incredible lap times. The other day in the F1 forum a DWC driver made a joke about the car (f-zero). It was funny, yet the staff member just got butt hurt and criticized him for it, saying the F1 tire is probably the best they have. If that is true, then that is very, very sad. We are pulling over 7Gs in some high speed corners with the stupid amounts of grip, yet low speed grip is bad. Then add the fact we have to use high downforce everywhere to be fast. Oh and don't forget the high slip angles.
In short, its a joke.
What? Really?
I'm no F1 expert and I rarely pay attention to it - but shouldn't that be around half of that or a tad more? (MAYBE 5 tops?)
Yep, from what i saw irl, 5 is maximum in the fastest corners like 130R.
This info about 7G is new for me, just shows, how it is done wrong. IIRC, '09 F1 cars were also hard to stay behind, yet in DWC you can see "bumper to bumper" racing. 2 months ago i paid 3 for 1 and it'll be again long time without iRacing for me, they again proved, that it still isn't worth the money for me.
I think PMD is saying the grip you get is allowing you to pull the equivilent of 7G in the game.
In regards to what you said Pat, It's the same for every sim, that fear of dying or injuring yourself or another is irrelevant in sims.
I completely understand your comments about sawing on the wheel etc, it doesn't reflect a bad sim, it just reflects bad environmental behaviour, which can never be avoided.
In regards to what you said Pat, It's the same for every sim, that fear of dying or injuring yourself or another is irrelevant in sims.
I completely understand your comments about sawing on the wheel etc, it doesn't reflect a bad sim, it just reflects bad environmental behaviour, which can never be avoided.
Exactly that. Its like trying to speak out against a communist state. If you dare to speak your mind a hundred brainwashed morons will be on your back within a few hours.
I spoke my mind in iR forums & they banned me for a month. I have no idea of the reason for the ban.
No examples were given. They just act like a communist dictatorship. Censoring what they see as speaking out against them. They feed us sh!t & expect us to take it. No sense of humour at all.
Speak out & get banned
. iRacing act like the people they most dislike in the world. Calling them hypocritical would be a massive understatement.Welcome to the communist dictatorship of iRacing!
It's not communism, it's capitalism, if you remove all negative comments about your game, it's thought of as flawless by people outside of the sim. Thus - more monies.
Nevertheless Americans (no offence) of all people [with the exception of pretty much all US persons on lfsforum] are easily 'brainwashed' by product marketing, after all, that's where infomercials where invented. So the majority defend iRacing like hell, although most of the guys on there have never played ANY other sim, which is kinda sad.
If it was a German or Russian game, the forum would be a-mass with suggestions and complaints, that would be supported and listened to because for the Germans and Russians nothing is ever good enough, it can always be improved, and they seek quality for their customers, thats why games like IL-2 and Men Of War, although both similar to other games far surpass their rivals.
Seems like iRacing staff seem to have more of a "it will do mentality" than other dev teams. (yes I'm refering to LFS devs because unlike iRacing, they won't release a shitty unfinished product, they will only release the best possible thing that they can).
Something that I'd be interesting in following progress of....
If anyone missed it before falling to page 5 (!) of the forums:
From Tony Gardner -> http://members.iracing.com/jforum/posts/list/1871800.page
If anyone missed it before falling to page 5 (!) of the forums:
From Tony Gardner -> http://members.iracing.com/jforum/posts/list/1871800.page
In all honesty, it was shit.
I agree they seem to think they can get away with pushing out sub- standard content.
I can't go along with the 'Communist dictatorship' description though. Yes, there are some terrible fanboys who'll gang up on anyone attacking the physics, but there are some right ones on the ISI forums too. iRacing do allow big threads on rFactor2, Kunos' stuff, pCARS etc. with people openly advocating the competition and talking of superior tyre models elsewhere. In fact 'mr Kunos' turned up to clarify some issues about pricing on his sim, in one. They could decide not to allow any of that.
I don't know what anttt69 said there - did he mention DaveK's crossdressing proclivities perchance? I merely PM'd him, mentioned the photos, and he kindly sent me go-faster plugin to keep me quiet.
Oops! Now I've gone and done it. Oh well, never mind....
I can't go along with the 'Communist dictatorship' description though. Yes, there are some terrible fanboys who'll gang up on anyone attacking the physics, but there are some right ones on the ISI forums too. iRacing do allow big threads on rFactor2, Kunos' stuff, pCARS etc. with people openly advocating the competition and talking of superior tyre models elsewhere. In fact 'mr Kunos' turned up to clarify some issues about pricing on his sim, in one. They could decide not to allow any of that.
I don't know what anttt69 said there - did he mention DaveK's crossdressing proclivities perchance? I merely PM'd him, mentioned the photos, and he kindly sent me go-faster plugin to keep me quiet.
Oops! Now I've gone and done it. Oh well, never mind....Da fuq?
This thread is closed
iRacing
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