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Quote from DeadWolfBones :It's one of my big pet peeves with F1 (and European racing in general) that the inside driver exiting a corner is allowed to (pretty much expected to) run the outside driver off at the exit of the corner. Total bullshit, IMO.

Different culture.

The European viewers will think that if you ain't even allow to drive the other car on the outside off at the exit of the corner, or not even allowed to block on straight, then that is total bullshit.

PS. from what I understand it is exactly the same part, supplied by Renault, that failed on BOTH Vettel and Grosjean car?
Quote from Mustafur : don't think Hamilton could of gave any more room

sure, in a very slow corner Lewis cant go off throttle an take the turn farther away from the apex, absolutely impossible^^
maybe he cant do so without losing the position, but thats the point of racing. And it doesnt matter whos fault it was, Lewis should have known that almost any driver would rejoin the track as fast as possible if he was pushed off and is still in a position to make the overtake - doing this with pastor and expecting to survive the corner is simply stupid. Doesnt matter if he had the right to push him off, nor does it matter that pastor shouldnt have rejoined there, the outcome was clear from the start and the smart move would have been to give up the position instead of going home with no points (Lewis isnt quite in danger of getting a reputation that you can pass him however you want and he will yield...)
Quote from AndreABG :sure, in a very slow corner Lewis cant go off throttle an take the turn farther away from the apex, absolutely impossible^^
maybe he cant do so without losing the position, but thats the point of racing. And it doesnt matter whos fault it was, Lewis should have known that almost any driver would rejoin the track as fast as possible if he was pushed off and is still in a position to make the overtake - doing this with pastor and expecting to survive the corner is simply stupid. Doesnt matter if he had the right to push him off, nor does it matter that pastor shouldnt have rejoined there, the outcome was clear from the start and the smart move would have been to give up the position instead of going home with no points (Lewis isnt quite in danger of getting a reputation that you can pass him however you want and he will yield...)

Look at the replay, he clearly stretched his braking zone just to make the corner, its not a simple letting go of the throttle, when he only just made the corner.
You have to adjust the way you drive according to those you are driving against. If Alonso or Webber had been trying to pass Hamilton then there probably would not have been a problem. Hamilton knows that Maldonado is a bit of a head case but gave no leeway.

There's literally no point sitting in a steaming car bleating "it was my corner!"
Quote from Storm_Cloud :You have to adjust the way you drive according to those you are driving against. If Alonso or Webber had been trying to pass Hamilton then there probably would not have been a problem. Hamilton knows that Maldonado is a bit of a head case but gave no leeway.

And by that theory a driver should go into F1 and earn the reputation of "head case" so that people simply jump out of the way? No. Regardless of who you are racing against, there isn't much you can do if the driver you are racing against decides to go off the track and hit you. In my opinion, Maldonado had decided to hit Hamilton regardless but was caught out by the bottoming out and hit his wheel instead of the side body.
I didn't say "jump out of the way" so, no.
I would have jumped out the way, no question. This is modern F1 and that's the way the tyres work. You can't defend with DRS and Pirelli tyres it's utterly pointless. When your pace is similar yes, but when your tyres are gone, they are gone.
Quote from Storm_Cloud :I didn't say "jump out of the way" so, no.

But what you are saying is that drivers that are known to be arseholes be let through or at best not as well fought as those that drive cleanly. Which may be in some way be pragmatic for the drivers in a situation but it's bullshit for the sport.
Quote from englishlord :But what you are saying is that drivers that are known to be arseholes be let through or at best not as well fought as those that drive cleanly. Which may be in some way be pragmatic for the drivers in a situation but it's bullshit for the sport.

That's DRS & Pirelli for ya.
The sport is about obtaining more points than anyone else, not about being macho. If you think scoring points is bullshit for sport then I really don't know where you're coming from.

There are times when you must stand your ground and times when you have to accept that a situation only has downsides for you. It's not about letting the bullies win, but Pastor had a podium on his mind and does not care about the championship. He therefore had less to lose than Hamilton, so although he was not at fault that's no good when you're stuck in the tyre wall.

It's a bit being stood at a zebra crossing with a car speeding towards it. You could step out, get run over and then complain from the hospital that it was your right of way, or you engage your brain and get across the road eventually.
#136 - CSF
Quote from Mustafur :If you look at the Replay don't think Hamilton could of gave any more room, he came in pretty hard(keep in mind hes tyres where gone at this point too), so did Maldonado.

Pastor should of conceded at this point because only a crash was possible to make the corner, and that is to ignore the fact he had 4 tyres off the track at this point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqhiYXP0KNE

Yeah its not like I said he managed to leave more room for Romain earlier in the race. If he left a bit more room he'd take 4th. He didn't, he left himself open and paid the consequences for not driving for the title in those moments.
Quote from CSF :Yeah its not like I said he managed to leave more room for Romain earlier in the race. If he left a bit more room he'd take 4th. He didn't, he left himself open and paid the consequences for not driving for the title in those moments.

As someone on iracing forum said (shockingly)

Quote from Simon Madden :It was immature of Lewis to not concede his position at that point, and it makes no difference if the actual accident was his fault or not.

You don't get points for being in the right.

Maldanado is a risk, but he is also not shown much respect by his peers. He is in a Williams, he is a "pay" driver. The established guys don't like it. If Lewis had thought about it, respected that Maldanado was a lot quicker, he would have finished a semi satisfied fourth.

Quote from Intrepid :That's DRS & Pirelli for ya.

No, it's a rule system that gives you a drive through if you crash into someone and demotes you from pole to the back of the grid if you make a fuelling error.

Quote from Storm_Cloud :The sport is about obtaining more points than anyone else, not about being macho. If you think scoring points is bullshit for sport then I really don't know where you're coming from.

There are times when you must stand your ground and times when you have to accept that a situation only has downsides for you. It's not about letting the bullies win, but Pastor had a podium on his mind and does not care about the championship. He therefore had less to lose than Hamilton, so although he was not at fault that's no good when you're stuck in the tyre wall.

It's a bit being stood at a zebra crossing with a car speeding towards it. You could step out, get run over and then complain from the hospital that it was your right of way, or you engage your brain and get across the road eventually.

3rd place gets you more points that 4th place, so you should be able to battle for a place without fear of getting punted into the barrier by a sulky pay driver. Regardless of how ****ed your tyres are.

By your logic, nobody would tackle notorious football players in case they get injured and it jeopardises a future match.
#139 - CSF
But 4th place gets you more points than 19th. He wasn't going to finish 3rd.

Also please give an example of flags and back of the grid penalties.
Quote from englishlord :No, it's a rule system that gives you a drive through if you crash into someone and demotes you from pole to the back of the grid if you ignore a flag.



3rd place gets you more points that 4th place, so you should be able to battle for a place without fear of getting punted into the barrier by a sulky pay driver. Regardless of how ****ed your tyres are.

By your logic, nobody would tackle notorious football players in case they get injured and it jeopardises a future match.

Lewis took a high risk strategy. Modern tracks mean that when you run a driver wide, which Lewis was perfectly within his rights to do, and then that's followed by a corner in the opposite direction of the first then you have to take into account that. Lewis didn't. There's a time and a place to defend your position, this wasn't it.
Quote from CSF :But 4th place gets you more points than 19th. He wasn't going to finish 3rd.

Also please give an example of flags and back of the grid penalties.

Post edited. So many Hamilton penalties, it gets confusing.

Quote from Intrepid :Lewis took a high risk strategy. Modern tracks mean that when you run a driver wide, which Lewis was perfectly within his rights to do, and then that's followed by a corner in the opposite direction of the first then you have to take into account that. Lewis didn't. There's a time and a place to defend your position, this wasn't it.

He should take account of something which multiple different drivers including Maldonado himself didn't take account of in the same afternoon?
Quote from CSF :But 4th place gets you more points than 19th. He wasn't going to finish 3rd.

Also please give an example of flags and back of the grid penalties.

He was never going to finish 4th. He was pretty much crawling at that point with 2 more laps to go.
Quote from Hyperactive :I think the engineers would tell them if one of them was shifting at wrong rpm. Maybe the lights are set up differently for them. I think the drivers can adjust the shift point and vettel had just set his lower (=lights appear sooner) than webber at that point?

Well surely yeah. What could have had a lot more effect on the engine and or gearbox is downshifts.
Quote from N I K I :Well surely yeah. What could have had a lot more effect on the engine and or gearbox is downshifts.

Downshifts is hard on the engine, upshifts is hard on gearbox.
What Ham did wasn't very smart and realtively normal racing, but Maldonado had the upper hand. He knew he got him in the bag. He coudl have taken the exit and get back on track just behind Ham, but he didn't and he always seems to rather go for the collision

In teh end it's good entertainment, but as a driver i'd rather not be with him on teh track.
#146 - CSF
Quote from DevilDare :He was never going to finish 4th. He was pretty much crawling at that point with 2 more laps to go.

He had 7s in hand with 1 1/2 laps to go. He was losing 2s a lap on what he was doing 5 laps before. He was going to finish 4th.
I recommend you actually watch the replay... When both Lewis and Pastor entered T1, there was a 7.5 second gap between them and the next 3 cars. When they collided, the gap was down to 5 seconds.

Plus you are quick to forget what happened to Alonso a couple weeks back... When the tyres go, they get worse corner by corner. There is simply no way he would have finished 4th.
#148 - CSF
Most of that was lost by going side by side through 1 and into 2. If he was on his own it's highly unlikely that he would have been caught. Michael also lost time overtaking Hulkenberg at the same time Lewis and Pastor were hitting.
Does anyone have the time/patience to go through the Spa 2008 thread and compare opinions about the Raikkonen/Hamilton incident in that race with the Hamilton/Maldonado incident in this race?

Anyway, let's look at what Hamilton said after the 2008 race, when Raikkonen squeezed him off track from a very similar position in comparison to the Hamilton/Maldonado incident:

Quote from Lewis Hamilton :Kimi left me no room, I didn't want to crash and had no choice but to go over the kerbs.

Source

So, when it gets done to Hamilton it's because the other driver gave him no room. When Hamilton does it it's fair because "You never let people past, you've got to race for every position you can get." Then he refuses to go into more detail because he 'doesn't remember' what happened.

This is another incident showing the hypocrisy of his words and actions.

Anyway, I can only agree with the other people who have suggested Hamilton should have let Maldonado through and tried to make it home without losing more positions. I would give 75/25% blame for Hamilton/Maldonado. 75% to Hamilton for running Maldonado off track and 25% to Maldonado for rejoining from off-track rather than cutting through the run-off area and rejoining to try and pass later in the lap.
Quote from amp88 :
Anyway, I can only agree with the other people who have suggested Hamilton should have let Maldonado through and tried to make it home without losing more positions.

That's pretty much what Withmarsh said (Dutch but you can take my word for it ). His opinion is Maldonado was at fault here but Hamilton should have left him more room.

Formula 1 Grand Prix of Europe 2012
(185 posts, started )
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