Quote from englishlord :

3rd place gets you more points that 4th place, so you should be able to battle for a place without fear of getting punted into the barrier by a sulky pay driver. Regardless of how ****ed your tyres are.

Yes! Of course you should! But this is the real world, so it doesn't work like that.

Yet you show hypocrisy yourself amp?

Quote from amp88 :

On that incident I think Raikkonen didn't leave enough room for Hamilton to be able to go round the outside and take him in the second part of the chicane. However, I don't think he needed to because of Hamilton's position on the track.

So you go with Kimi when he does it, but go against Hamilton when he does it?


Speaking of Kimi, watch him pass Lewis properly instead of doing something stupid like Maldonado did.

@CSF: http://www.youtube.com/watch?f ... e&v=uQ4B19TeaYs#t=26s
MSC supposedly never closed in DRS looking at the graphic. Penalty?

Quote from PMD9409 :

@CSF: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... TeaYs&feature=g-all-u
MSC supposedly never closed in DRS looking at the graphic. Penalty?

Why? The crash doesn't happen until after Michael is through. That's not even the lap they were discussing post race.

Was talking about the DRS, not the pass itself. However there are no yellow flags shown to him anyways watching the video. Just wanted to get under you skin abit.

Pretty poor attempt even by your usual standards.

You responded in one minute. I take that as an accomplishment.

Because I was viewing this thread ffs.

<3

Quote from PMD9409 :

Yet you show hypocrisy yourself amp?

So you go with Kimi when he does it, but go against Hamilton when he does it?

I was thinking about including this in my post, but I wanted someone to actually do the work. Surely you don't think I would fall for that trap

Although they were similar, let's look at the differences:

1. Very few passes have been made round the outside of the revised bus stop at Spa. We already saw people overtaking round the outside of that corner in the race yesterday. Hamilton himself was overtaken earlier. I forget by whom, but he was.
2. Hamilton, in the move against Raikkonen, was not in as good a position as Maldonado was after the first apex. Take a look at this image and you can see that Maldonado has almost his full car alongside Hamilton after the first apex. When Hamilton runs him off the track (between the 4th and 5th frames), Maldonado's front wheels are virtually alongside Hamilton's. In the Spa incident Hamilton is only half alongside Raikkonen just after the first apex and continuing to slide back. When Hamilton finally commits to cutting the corner his front tyres are alongside Raikkonen's rears. Check out the attached image.
3. Tyre condition in the race yesterday was a large factor; at Spa tyre condition was not a factor.

1. Who cares, and it was Grosjean.
2. Kimi was ahead at Spa, Lewis was ahead at Valencia. Virtually and almost means nothing.
3. Who cares? Rules doesn't say anything about bad tires and letting people by.

the simple fact of the matter is that earlier in the race same exact corner 2 different drivers (forgot who it was) same exact overtake round the outside with the exception that the driver on the inside decided to not be a twat and run the other guy off the track (which amounts to cheating if you ask me) and the whole thing ended cleanly and without a crash

Quote from PMD9409 :

2. Kimi was ahead at Spa, Lewis was ahead at Valencia. Virtually and almost means nothing.

Watch it again, Maldonado has his nose ahead going into the corner.

Quote from PMD9409 :

1. Who cares, and it was Grosjean.
2. Kimi was ahead at Spa, Lewis was ahead at Valencia. Virtually and almost means nothing.
3. Who cares? Rules doesn't say anything about bad tires and letting people by.

1. The corner shapes at Spa make the outside move much more difficult, because of the tighter second part. That's why you would need more overlap (speaks to point 2) because you need to slow more when taking the tigher radius inside line into the second apex
2. See above.
3. I didn't say the rules said anything, but Hamilton's much poorer tyre condition meant that Maldonado was more able (in conjunction with point 1) to pull the outside pass, in comparison to Spa.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Watch it again, Maldonado has his nose ahead going into the corner.

So before the corner? Doesn't count.

Quote from amp88 :

1. The corner shapes at Spa make the outside move much more difficult, because of the tighter second part. That's why you would need more overlap (speaks to point 2) because you need to slow more when taking the tigher radius inside line into the second apex
2. See above.
3. I didn't say the rules said anything, but Hamilton's much poorer tyre condition meant that Maldonado was more able (in conjunction with point 1) to pull the outside pass, in comparison to Spa.

1) Corner exceptions are not in the rules.
2) See above
3) Of course, morally it was stupid but by the rules he did nothing wrong.

Rules are rules, I don't agree with the whole "pushing the car off track" thing but that is allowed by the rules. If Lewis would have tried to make the chicane at Spa there would have been contact and it would have been Lewis' fault. Lewis in a way got what he deserved for running Maldonado off like that, but Maldonado still gets the blame for breaking the rules.

Quote from PMD9409 :

1) Corner exceptions are not in the rules.
2) See above
3) Of course, morally it was stupid but by the rules he did nothing wrong.

Rules are rules, I don't agree with the whole "pushing the car off track" thing but that is allowed by the rules. If Lewis would have tried to make the chicane at Spa there would have been contact and it would have been Lewis' fault. Lewis in a way got what he deserved for running Maldonado off like that, but Maldonado still gets the blame for breaking the rules.

I hadn't mentioned the rules yet, but I'm glad you did. There was a clarification to the 'one move' rule before the start of the season this year. This article does a nice summary:

Quote from GrandPrix.com :

What this means in practice is that if, for example, a driver defends the inside on the run into to a right-hand corner and then heads back left to take up the racing line on the approach to the corner, the overtaking driver who is being made 'to go the long way round' should in theory be able to keep his boot in and try to complete the move, safe in the knowledge that he will not be driven off the road.

Given this interpretation it's difficult not to find Hamilton in breech of the rules, too, for running Maldonado off track. I'm interested why this is the case, as, I'm sure, are a number of other people. The rule explicitly states "on the approach to the corner", but it makes no sense to be able to drive someone off the track after the approach to the corner.

Yes, 20.3:

Quote :

20.3 More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off‐line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.

That's for straights and entering corners. That has nothing to do with exiting a corner as the racing line has changed twice (outside to inside, inside to outside), therefore the rule cannot simply be used in that way.

In that same article it says:

Quote :

The majority, however, hold that the leading driver is then perfectly within his rights to move back across to take the ideal (fastest) line through the ensuing corner, without such action constituting another move. In practice, that means that unless the following driver is right alongside him, the leading driver has the right to use all the road.

It's a grey area, either make a rule for it or you must let it slide.

Quote from PMD9409 :

Yes, 20.3:

That's for straights and entering corners. That has nothing to do with exiting a corner as the racing line has changed twice (outside to inside, inside to outside), therefore the rule cannot simply be used in that way.

It's difficult to credit the notion that someone is protected on the outside on the approach then when they turn into the corner the driver on the inside can drive them off the track. I don't think that's what the rule is, and I don't think you do either.

Quote from PMD9409 :

In that same article it says:

Quote :

In practice, that means that unless the following driver is right alongside him, the leading driver has the right to use all the road.

It's a grey area, either make a rule for it or you must let it slide.

Maldonado was about as right alongside as you can get before he was driven off the road.

If we're going to quote rules

Quote :

20.2 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.
Should a car leave the track the driver may rejoin, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage.
A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason.

Quote from amp88 :

It's difficult to credit the notion that someone is protected on the outside on the approach then when they turn into the corner the driver on the inside can drive them off the track. I don't think that's what the rule is, and I don't think you do either.

States nothing for corner exit, therefore a grey area that is taken advantage of nearly every F1 race. This incident highlights it.

Quote :

Maldonado was about as right alongside as you can get before he was driven off the road.

On entry sure, but after that he was not even with him at all, he was falling back in fact throughout the corner.

Since Lewis was in the grey area, they can then look at Maldonado who clearly breaks 20.2:

Quote :

20.2 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.
Should a car leave the track the driver may rejoin, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage.
A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason.

So Lewis breaks no rule, and Maldonado does, therefore by FIA ruling Maldonado is at fault.

And passing someone around the outside isn't a justifiable reason, as has been shown for many years in F1 now.

You're more arguing the rulebook than whether it is Hamilton's fault or not. Unless you simply don't like him, which would also make sense.

Quote from amp88 :

Maldonado was about as right alongside as you can get before he was driven off the road.

Actually Maldonado was a bit ahead even on the braking zone, but hey cut this crap its like 50/50 both's fault just depends how you wanna look at it. It's like fanboys vs fanboys vs haters.

Quote from englishlord :

If we're going to quote rules

Hence why I gave Maldonado 25% of the blame.

Quote from PMD9409 :

On entry sure, but after that he was not even with him at all, he was falling back in fact throughout the corner.

At the first apex (frame 2) the front wheels are almost alongside each other. In frame 3 (after the first apex), Maldonado's front right wheel is a little behind Hamilton's (difficult to tell exactly from the image, but call it half a metre or so). In frame 4 (when Hamilton has almost pushed him off the track), Maldonado's front wheel is still around half a metre behind Hamilton's. Do you really consider ~0.5 metres being "not with him at all"? Also, the rate at which Maldonado was falling back is debatable. Even after Maldonado has been off track and rejoins (frame 6) his front wheel is still level with Hamilton's engine cover, slightly behind the roll hoop. Compare this progression to the Raikkonen/Hamilton incident and you should see a large difference.

Quote from PMD9409 :

So Lewis breaks no rule, and Maldonado does, therefore by FIA ruling Maldonado is at fault.

I already acknowledged Maldonado broke the rules, but I think Hamilton's driving should be considered as being outside the rules too.

Quote from PMD9409 :

Unless you simply don't like him, which would also make sense.

I don't like Hamilton (for a number of reasons), but that isn't informing my opinions of these incidents. For example, at India last year I gave Massa all the blame for running into Hamilton. I don't just blame Hamilton in every incident he's involved in.

Quote from Crizze :

Actually Maldonado was a bit ahead even on the braking zone, but hey cut this crap its like 50/50 both's fault just depends how you wanna look at it. It's like fanboys vs fanboys vs haters.

So was Kimi, but if you can't hold that advantage then you end up with what we had Sunday. Also, we are talking about Lewis and Maldonado here, they actually have fanboys?

Quote from amp88 :

At the first apex (frame 2) the front wheels are almost alongside each other. In frame 3 (after the first apex), Maldonado's front right wheel is a little behind Hamilton's (difficult to tell exactly from the image, but call it half a metre or so). In frame 4 (when Hamilton has almost pushed him off the track), Maldonado's front wheel is still around half a metre behind Hamilton's. Do you really consider ~0.5 metres being "not with him at all"? Also, the rate at which Maldonado was falling back is debatable. Even after Maldonado has been off track and rejoins (frame 6) his front wheel is still level with Hamilton's engine cover, slightly behind the roll hoop. Compare this progression to the Raikkonen/Hamilton incident and you should see a large difference.

He was ahead of Hamilton entering the corner, and then was behind by the apex. Plus, behind is behind (unless otherwise stated), whether it be .5m or 3m.

Quote :

I already acknowledged Maldonado broke the rules, but I think Hamilton's driving should be considered as being outside the rules too.

I wish it was as I hate that style of defending/overtaking/racing, but it isn't. He broke nothing and shouldn't be penalized for anything. In fact if anything, Hamilton gave himself a penalty by losing himself 12 points in the standings, where he could be 2nd only 11 points behind Alonso and now 3rd 23 points behind.

Quote :

I don't like Hamilton (for a number of reasons), but that isn't informing my opinions of these incidents. For example, at India last year I gave Massa all the blame for running into Hamilton. I don't just blame Hamilton in every incident he's involved in.

I didn't really care if you did or not, just seemed persistent about it is all. Unless they clarify this more and actually put a rule against it, you will only see it for more years to come.

Quote from mythdat :

Do you realise that there's something called a "World Championship"? There isn't just one race, there are lots of them and drivers get points for their finishing positions in each one. Then at the end of the season when they're all finished they get totalled up and the one with the most points wins.
.

You don't understand what I'm saying. If a single point makes the difference for the championship then I'm sure as hell the difference of points between 2nd and 3rd make a bigger difference. You try to get the best possible result, realistically Hamilton could of held (and was holding) Maldonado off for the duration of the remaining laps. It's not Hamilton's fault he got wrecked.

To suggest someone should just back off anytime another car gets close because points win a championship is stupid because you're basically creating an oxymoron where ultimately everyone wants to be 1st but nobody should get close to other cars because they should be thinking about points.

I don't think it was exactly realistic to hold off Maldonado for another lap and a half. Hamilton's tyres were shot and only getting worse, so it was only a matter of time before it would've happened. That said, Maldonado was a bit foolish to think he was getting through there.

If that's the case Rappa Z why are people saying it was Hamilton's fault? Maldonado had better drive out of the corners and could have easily passed him later on in the same lap.