Ok. As the local political hell raiser I'm doing it here.
What do people think about what is going on with the 53rd state and Lebanon at the moment.
Very nasty business. Especially after that 'Yo Blair debarcle with Bush and the open mike.When will Blair turn and bite Bush in the Arran Jumper and show him the pitbull hasn't left these shores yet. Israel is wrong in it's actions. Hezbula is a 100 year old political party that was democratically elected. We should be defending the 'democratic freedom of these people' as somebody somewhere said.
Over 5 Billion Dollars a year get given to Israel just for the armed forces. DO you think they would be acting like this if they didn't have long range howitzers, F16's and oh, has any one mentioned the bomb? Shhhh. Weapons of mass destruction. We know where one is. Someone in the foriegn office read the atlas wrong. It wasn't Iraq, it was Israel.
Don't blame religion for mankinds wrongs. It is only used as a tool with it's various interpretations. We could then say that humans + weapons do not mix well or humans + humans do not mix well.
This is probably the most complex conflict in our history and it's not all black and white. Looking back it is impossible to say who "started it" as both sides have good arguments and are also guilty of many crimes. The more important question is who will end it and how? The way I see it they have two choices. Either with mass genocide of one side or they stop teaching their children to hate. This conflict was started by people who are mostly dead now even by old age. But the new generation who has been thought to hate has taken over for them.
There are also great political interests in the background. War is business and many do not care if people die as long as the money is flowing.
True, I agree with the complexity of the conflict, nowadays both sides are guilty, but I think one of the sides should make an exercise of humility, they should think what they suffered about 60 years ago and what they are doing now. Civilians are not to blame, and I think that's a lesson they, especially, should have learned.
The problem I have is that Israel wouldn't be doind this if they didn't have the artificial steroided up muscles that the West (particularily the very large bit of the west thats out there beyond the big blue thing) has given it. All for a supposed defence against the arab nations that it feels it is threatened by. If it just tryed to get on instead of being paranoid then life around there would be a hell of lot quieter than it is now.
This has the potential to start an Arab state war. They are talking about it. This really could boil down to a war of religion with the christian west crusading around looking for holy relics whilst the Muslim east sit there and wonders what they must have done in a previous life.
Israel has basically been given a very long leach and it's only now thats it's masters have realised that not only can it get into the next doors garden but it can unlock the back door and shit on the carpet as well.
It has simlies to a certain middle East dictorship which was sitting on a lot of oil (Damn. And I was trying so hard not to mention the thick black stuff). That state was supported and fed and given back rubs which was fine when it bites the neighbour but everyone is shocked when it turns on the hand that feeds it.
I hope Israel can be persuaded to pull out and reinstate talks as soon as possible but from all the indications they are mobalising an invasion force. Imagine what would kick of if they did invade. Even if they snaffled the Gaza strip back they would stir the wrath of every muslim state. Syriah is right there, Iraq is a stones throw. Jordans looking to get mixed up, who Knows what Turkey will decide to do. Egypt and Saudi Arabia providing some heavy wieght opposition. How far can American protection go before the world turns and says no.
And ffs whe can't our government grow some bloomin balls and stop sucking up to a man that likes Arran Jumpers. We got six war ships mooching around out there. Can we actually do anything other than sell ice creams and stop mad clerics from being rescued.
They actually showed rare footage of a Hezbollah rockets on the news last night. Rare because there are so few of them. Israel's behaviour is disgraceful atm but equally bad is how the US, they are the worlds police force after all, seem to be completely unaware of the fact that this conflict is happening and are waiting until Israel convinantley destroys Hezbollah before doing anything.
You know, sometimes I think we ought to just nuke the whole area and
turn it into a big parking lot for the EU.
Hezbolla started it this time. And if the UN really wanted to do something,
They'd help the Lebanese Gov't disarm Hezbolla like what they stated need
to be done a few years ago. It's too late now. Every time a cannonball
lands in Lebanon from Israel, It just creates more sympathy for Hezbolla from the rest of the country and or hatred for Israel.
I dunno maybe they all have tunnel vision over there. I don't think they realize that they are in a lose-lose situation.
And this conflict has more players in it besides Israel, Lebanon and Hezbolla.
Syria and Iran got their hand in this nasty cookie jar too. And one of the main reasons we haven't taken those two clowns out is cause we're afraid of what will replace them.
I know a few people from Palestine and Lebanon... They can't stand ANY of the factions over there. LOL can you blame them?
But sitting on the fence and seeing both sides, I prefer the side that lets women wear bikinis and not burkas. The side that will let me pray any way I want, any time I want. Not the side that decides I need to live my life by
their religious view.
But like some one posted earlier... Israel ought to let the UN do it's thing...
the trouble is, the UN won't. The UN is nothing more than a whiny bitch.
It points out all the obvious problems in the world and whines about it, then
tries to blame somebody for the problem, writes up these fancy papers
and gives fine & dandy speeches on the situation... and then they're all happy for doing their "good deed of the day"
But yeah, the UN should go in there and enforce what they said. THey should
send troops in there and start capping Hezbolla members that won't abide by the disarming instead of just whining
The UN can't just go in there. The UN is not an army. It's not a police force. I would have far more to say about the UN if it was. The UN is supposed to be the global concience. And Like all good conciences it has to try and spoil the party. If it didn't it wouldn't be doing it's job properly. The problem is that the UN relies on international armed forces to work within it's (The UN's) parameters to actually put in the foot work. How many armed forces around the world want to get between Hezbolla and Israel at the moment. None that I can think off.
So yes what the UN is saying is right. But without any one willing to enforce or back the UN up this will just continue.
The americans cant and won't go in there because they will be fighting their own hardware. Which would just make them look stupid. We can't go in there because someone 'yo'd' Blair plus we'd be fighting american hardware and that wouldn't look so good. No other EU state has a viable fighting force except for possible France but since they have a muslim majority then I can really see that happening.
So the UN can be as wax lyrical untill it's blue in the helmet but nothing they say (Unfortunatly) can be backed up. It's America that has the power to do something here. By leaning very heavily on Israel. But I really don't see that happening either. So it carries on. Israel continues to push it's forces into Lebanon. It will get alot worse before it gets better.
Why would we be fighting American hardware? The thing said to disarm Hezbolla... They use AKs and Iranian designed missiles. If Hezbolla was disarmed I don't think Isreal would be doing anything over there.
The UN has a "peace keeping" force... made up internationally, but
wouldn't enforcing the paperwork on Hezbolla be an act of peace keeping?
You don't understand... we (the US) don't wanna lean on Israel on this.
WE look at it as Hezbolla brought this on and the Lebanese Gov't should've gone thru with disarming them. Israel might be going a little over the top - but sometimes you just have to.
And yeah, WE should have thrown more money at Lebanon since their government is in a very weakened state and helped them get rid of the extremist elements
Lebanese civilians have been under the constant attack of the state of Israel for several days. The State of Israel, in disregard to international law and the Geneva Convention, is launching a maritime and air siege targeting the entire population of the country. Innocent civilians are being collectively punished in Lebanon by the state of Israel in deliberate acts of terrorism as described in Article 33 of the Geneva Convention.
I think that even if Hezbolla disarmed things wouldn't calm down. Sure Lebanon isn't playing ball but the over reaction of Israel kinda makes Hezbolla look like they are playing with pea shooters in a hurricane.
Lebanon is a democratically elected government. As is Iran and as was Iraq before someone sponsered a coup and installed a dictator.
Which means there are no. I repeat, no, fundemental elements to their government. I will say that there are if you are willing to admit there are fundementalist neo cons in your government. As have we fundementals and extremeists in our Democratically *Cough cough* elected government.
If my countries borders where like that of Lebenon I am sure some of my friends would be tempted to hurl a few rocks at the oppressors.
Isn't the point of a war to obliterate your enemy while taking as little damage to yourself as possible? So I don't see how it would make much sense to engage Hezbollah and only use a very small measured force equal to that which Hezbollah used against them.
The situation sucks guys, and has been so for way too many years. As an Israeli all I can say that most people here are against war (well.. naturally) but are also against the (sort of post occupation) behaviour of the government.
All I know is that too many people (civilians and soldiers alike, from both sides) get killed in this ugly conflict, which basically goes back to 1948... and even earlier (to the biblical days....). Can't tell you what the solution is like... but I can tell you that most people are looking for one.. wars are ugly.
Even as an Israely and a Jew (well.. at least formally) I can tell you that I'm unable to take a side. Both sides are right.. and OTOH, both are wrong in many things that they're doing. I just hope It'll end.. and the sooner the better.
I just read an article that stated Israel was open to the possibilty of NATO
Forces to go into southern Lebanon as a peace keeping force. That sounds like a good idea so long as it isn't like 20 yrs ago. The US forces were prohibited from using live ammo... resulting in the loss of over 200 + US Marines.
I think the prosoect of NATO forces entering the area would limit, if
not stop Israeli attacks and have a more comprehensive approach to stopping what's going on over there from Hezbollah.
Oh and another thing.... this type of violence and the response required
kinda transcends the Geneva Accord.
It really sucks that innocent civilians are caught up in this... they are the ones that always pay and when it's all over... no one seems to give a damn about them
Right now, as in the past, Israel is being permitted to "defend" itself by pulverising neighbourhoods and bombing airports, seaports, gas stations, power stations, highways and bridges - civilian infrastructure. Over 300 Lebanese civilians are dead - ten times as many casualties as Israel has suffered (I do not wish to diminish Israeli suffering by saying that, but those are the numbers). Lebanese civilians are being punished for the actions of Hezbollah - not the actions of the Lebanese government or the Lebanese military, but of an independent and militarised political party (which, ironically enough, sprang up to fight the Israeli invasion/occupation of Lebanon in 1982).
Regardless of how this madness started (I could go into that but I'm at work and have limited time, so I'll try and keep it to the point), there can be no justification for deliberately destroying non-military targets from either side of the conflict. If people are going to condemn Hezbollah for targeting residential areas with their rockets (and they should be condemned for such acts), Israel's military command should be equally if not more strongly condemned for their incredible overreaction to the capture of two of their soldiers. Israel has advanced weaponry and other military technology (provided to them by the US - in contravention of US law which states that any military equipment made in the US, from shell casings to F-16s, is to be used for the defense of US territory and not to be sold elsewhere) and should, one would think, be able to discern a derelict oil-drilling truck from a missile launcher - in fact, two such oil trucks were destroyed recently because they were indeed mistaken for weapons vehicles. At the moment, much is made of the supposed military aid provided to Hezbollah by Syria and Iran - part of an effort by the US to once again invoke the spirit of the "Axis of Evil" - and an effort to link those countries to the Hezbollah uprising. If the principle of universality is used, you must also make the same issues of the no-questions-asked military support the US provides to Israel in the form of billions of US dollars and equipment every year. Noone speaks of the "US-designed fighter-bombers" that Israel flies - not in the same breath as the "Iranian-designed rockets" used by Hezbollah.
Noone in the mainstream media seems to want to apply the same analysis to Israel as they do to Hezbollah. If anyone does pop up their head these days to criticise Israel's hair-trigger over-reactions to provocations (not to mention the continuing questionable treatment of Palestinians, to put it mildly) or, as mentioned, its refusal to comply with literally dozens of UN resolutions regarding their conduct against their neighbours, stretching back decades (always vetoed by the US), they are reflexively accused of being anti-Semitic, Holocaust deniers, Nazi sympathisers, or even worse (if there is anything worse than that). People need to realise there is an important distinction to be made between an anti-Semite and a person who wishes Israel to behave according to International Law, the UN Charter and the Geneva Conventions. As a Red Cross employee I am familiar enough with all of these things to realise when a war crime or crime against humanity is being committed. I have no particular alliegance to one side or the other in this conflict, save for an alliegance to humanity itself and to those who suffer needlessly at the hands of those who had a choice whether to inflict such suffering. If you were to reverse the roles and see, hypothetically, Lebanese MiGs (sold to them by Russia) dropping high explosives in neighbourhoods of Tel Aviv and destroying Israel's airports and bridges, the immediate reaction is one of justified horror.
I only wish to see Israel follow the same rules everyone else is beholden to. Anything else is blatant hypocrisy.
Is any kind of prolonged peace possible when the most powerful state in the world consistently uses its veto power to undermine UN resolutions demanding Israel's observance of international law, thus increasing resentment against both nations? Complete destruction is more of a danger to Palestine and Lebanon right now than it will ever to be to Israel. Remember that Israel is the only nation in the area with nuclear weapons (and unflinching support from the US). Noone would be nuts enough to try and literally wipe Israel off the map.
If Israel thinks destroying a nation, displacing half a million Lebanese, sending thousands of foreigners fleeing for their lives and killing 300+ civilians is a justifiable reaction to the deaths of three soldiers and the capture of two others (it would appear that Hezbollah entered Israel and attacked an Israeli patrol - an act of utter stupidity), then problems will of course continue in the region. Most Arab nations (disregarding Mr Ahmedinijad's outburst about Israel - which was translated poorly btw) have said that they will happily recognise Israel's right to exist...if they cease their continuing illegal occupation of Gaza, the Golan Heights etc. which they invariably refuse to do. The so-called "Separation Wall" is still being constructed - against the wishes of the international community.
Prolonged peace is possible if Israel & America want it and are prepared to compromise and make sacrifices. it would seem Palestine has already sacrificed much, and Lebanon is now doing the same. The world already wants peace and can see that Israel and America have more than enough power to make it possible, but for some reason they choose to ignore the world. I will not lay all blame on Israel though, as Palestinian militants have taken many innocent Israeli lives through attacks and martyr bombings. However martyr bombings are the tools of people who are desperate and have no recourse through traditional avenues. Israel has all the power in this equation and logically carries a larger portion of responsibility for peace efforts.
Of course when I say "Israel" and "America" I refer to their military/political/corporate power structure, not the people in general. Most people I've met from either country are fairly liberal in their politics and wish for peace and fairness in all areas of the world.
Israel's government and their policies do not have complete support among Israelis. There is a growing movement in Israel dedicated to an open dialogue and peaceful, just and legal two-state solution with their neighbours. Recently, Israelis even took to the streets in their thousands to protest their government's assault on Lebanon - a gutsy move considering the insults and hatred hurled towards Israelis who openly disagree with their government.
I wouldn't say it's a gutsy move. Israelies are divided more or less half-half in their support for the government. The country itself (regardless of its military acts) IS very liberal.
Believing a country who throws terrorist suspects in a no man's land without any civil rights is difficult too, Brandon. I guess a visit at www.antiwar.com will show that there are some people from your country who constantly struggle to keep themselves and the others informed. And they're not left wingers.
OT edit: And by the way, I support Jihad Jerry, because I believe in de-evolution...
Maybe so, but I still don't think that if Israel really did pull out completly of everywhere and agree to international demands that all the Arab countries wanted and said ok now we want peace that there really would be peace, Israel would still most likely be under attack from various factions. If everyone was rational then sure it might be possible, but there are a lot of crazy people on all sides.
Although I agree that capital punishment is barbaric and should be outlawed anywhere I still think that internal policy issues of a sovereign country should be left out of international politics, even if we loathe something. Discussing them is one thing, to stop talking about international problems because we dislike the way some people live - or their judicial system - is another.
I'm going to be the naive one here and say can't everyone just have a big hug and get the hell along because Middle Eastern states bombing the hell of out of each other every few years/months/weeks is getting tiresome tbh.
