Quote from CodeLyoko1 :

might be a tiny infraction that is still around, but it's still not dead

I guess by that definition, it's like saying Margaret Thatcher could rise from the grave.

Quote from CarlLefrancois :

sorry just to clarify, this quote suggests racing teams and tyre manufacturers are investing in creating an algorithm for simulating how a tire responds under racing conditions... on a home computer. usable for publishing a video game.

did I read that right?

just theoretically assuming such a model can be made, and surpasses the current LFS model as much as it does the previous iteration... does it really, really matter how long it takes to make?

Obviously twisting the context. The point is modelling and understanding the dynamics of tyre behaviour is the difficult part. That's largely a scientific/engineering/testing/data collection challenge and I doubt it's openly available given the massive cost. Implementing a known model in software is a challenge, but much less so.

Quote from Mountaindewzilla :

All it will take is a major release to turn it around.
If it's shiny, fun and new, people will build a community around it.
The assumption that people around here seem to make is that LFS won't be shiny or new enough to get anyone's attention. To that I say: maybe.

Current development doesn't lend any credibility to a major release shiny or not. The reality is the game now looks dated and does it a great disservice. It would take a massive undertaking to get the game to current levels needed to resurrect the game. That's a big "maybe". Seeing the easter bunny probably has better odds.

Quote from Macfox :

The point is modelling and understanding the dynamics of tyre behaviour is the difficult part.

you have a point.

do we agree that modelling the tire to 98% of reality is already accomplished and exists for a long time? I believe your statement about race teams is talking about getting that last bit of behaviour exactly like real life.

my point is that Scawen is trying to do something completely different. he also has a tire model that already works and is much better than what S2 offers today. the problem with that model is that it takes too long to give a calculation. maybe it takes a second instead of .01 seconds.

Scawen's challenge with the tire modelling -- I'm just assuming here -- is strictly about making an approximation to the more complicated calculation that is fast enough to finish in .01 seconds but doesn't give up as much precision as the current model.


btw since you didn't respond to my last question, I take it you agree . in my mind there is no doubt, he manages to accomplish his goal, you fire up Live For Speed S3 "just to see"

Quote from Macfox :

Yes very true, but they've chosen not too and sacrificed the community.

Couple of reason I think why LFS is unlike to bounce back.

• Years of missed opportunity to release content to simulate the game.
  
• The trend of development speed doesn't lend any credibility to further stages.
  
• There are numerous other games that didn't exist leading up to 06. LFS now has a lot more competition.
  
• Once bitten twice shy. Community buy into the game isn't going to be the same.
  
• Average online racers are trending down. Even worse if you cut out the cruise servers.
  
• Physics aren't visual and the cosmetics don't do the game justice. Looking at it from a fresh pair of eyes, it looks very dated (circa 2003) and it's hard to appreciate the games mechanics, that are (IMO) well ahead of it time. It will take a massive overhaul of the games cosmetic side to get current. At the current rate of content release, it doubtful that's on the cards.
  

I still think you're missing something here though.
Let's say LFS is no more, and Scawen just says "I'm moving on to the next thing", and a year or two later he releases a racing game "Thrill Of Racing" or whatever, and it's brilliant. The sim community love it, everyone buys it, big online community. Great. Who here would say such a thing is impossible? Not me. We know what Scawen is capable of.
So now instead of it being called "Thrill of Racing", let's call it "Live for Speed S3". Do you really think it would be less likely to become popular?

The point is that only Scawen can decide when LFS has run its course. Until we hear that he has ceased development and intends to shut down the master server, nobody can say LFS is dead. As far as we know he is going to release an update and if not at that time, at a later time S3 with new content. When that happens the community will judge what he releases on its merits, although if we don't see a massive polarisation of opinions too I'll be flabbergasted. Rest assured, though, that if it's decent this "dead" game will become seriously popular again.

Quote from Macfox :

Yes very true, but they've chosen not too and sacrificed the community.

Couple of reason I think why LFS is unlike to bounce back.

• Years of missed opportunity to release content to simulate the game.
  
• The trend of development speed doesn't lend any credibility to further stages.
  
• There are numerous other games that didn't exist leading up to 06. LFS now has a lot more competition.
  
• Once bitten twice shy. Community buy into the game isn't going to be the same.
  
• Average online racers are trending down. Even worse if you cut out the cruise servers.
  
• Physics aren't visual and the cosmetics don't do the game justice. Looking at it from a fresh pair of eyes, it looks very dated (circa 2003) and it's hard to appreciate the games mechanics, that are (IMO) well ahead of it time. It will take a massive overhaul of the games cosmetic side to get current. At the current rate of content release, it doubtful that's on the cards.
  

Call a few proper simulators where you can configure as much as in LFS (or even more), and doesn't have a horrible force-feedback (referring to rFactor)

A game doesn't need flashy graphics to be good. I don't, on a low-regular base, still play the older Need for Speed games just for its graphics, I mean, back then, woo, awesome. Right now, still great, but its the gameplay that does the job in a game.

Quote from Macfox :

Current development doesn't lend any credibility to a major release shiny or not. The reality is the game now looks dated and does it a great disservice. It would take a massive undertaking to get the game to current levels needed to resurrect the game. That's a big "maybe". Seeing the easter bunny probably has better odds.

I don't think that extrapolating from recent years is fair to Scawen and Eric. If you look at LFS's history, it becomes clear that Scawen is very capable, and can produce excellent stuff in a reasonable amount of time.
Eric's work is subject to the limitations of LFS. Would you want to publish your shiny new assets in an old looking game to make a bunch if ingrates happy for a couple of days?
I certainly wouldn't.

Scawen and Eric are professionals that can produce professional results. Whenever Scawen focuses on something achievable, he produces really good results.
As long as Scawen is working on stuff that enables Eric to produce and publish quality assets, LFS's "resurrection" is a matter of time.

Alright then.

Quote from Mountaindewzilla :

I don't think that extrapolating from recent years is fair to Scawen and Eric. If you look at LFS's history, it becomes clear that Scawen is very capable, and can produce excellent stuff in a reasonable amount of time.

Not quite sure about that bit.

Quote from Mountaindewzilla :

Eric's work is subject to the limitations of LFS. Would you want to publish your shiny new assets in an old looking game to make a bunch if ingrates happy for a couple of days?
I certainly wouldn't.

The shiny new assets that we were never shown? Ah, yes.

Why am I even here. *sigh*

I don't play LFS for many time ago, I always loved it, played with 2 friends from years... but there are few improvements and it goes very slow to every upgrade, many people get bored, however I look the forum ocasionally looking for updates, but this is not serious, looks a joke... what I think is, LFS Devs have things more important to do that this game, while all you still waiting for S3 and believing that it will be released soon with the VW Scirocco, there are other games that advance faster than LFS, like rFactor, So? the point of this is, I think that LFS is dying from some time ago.

Yes, there are many racers that still joining the servers and playing races as always, but not so much people like can have any other sim that receives more attention on its upgrades. That's my opinion...

Quote from CarlLefrancois :

you have a point.

do we agree that modelling the tire to 98% of reality is already accomplished and exists for a long time? I believe your statement about race teams is talking about getting that last bit of behaviour exactly like real life.

my point is that Scawen is trying to do something completely different. he also has a tire model that already works and is much better than what S2 offers today. the problem with that model is that it takes too long to give a calculation. maybe it takes a second instead of .01 seconds.

Scawen's challenge with the tire modelling -- I'm just assuming here -- is strictly about making an approximation to the more complicated calculation that is fast enough to finish in .01 seconds but doesn't give up as much precision as the current model.


btw since you didn't respond to my last question, I take it you agree . in my mind there is no doubt, he manages to accomplish his goal, you fire up Live For Speed S3 "just to see"

Scawen hasn't ever stated the exact issue, but I'd imagine they've formed their own or sourced a model and the implementation doesn't match RL due as additional considerations/factors/influences are required.

I think it does matter how long it takes as ultimately it's sales maintain development and probably motivation.

Quote from sinbad :

I still think you're missing something here though.
Let's say LFS is no more, and Scawen just says "I'm moving on to the next thing", and a year or two later he releases a racing game "Thrill Of Racing" or whatever, and it's brilliant. The sim community love it, everyone buys it, big online community. Great. Who here would say such a thing is impossible? Not me. We know what Scawen is capable of.
So now instead of it being called "Thrill of Racing", let's call it "Live for Speed S3". Do you really think it would be less likely to become popular?

The point is that only Scawen can decide when LFS has run its course. Until we hear that he has ceased development and intends to shut down the master server, nobody can say LFS is dead. As far as we know he is going to release an update and if not at that time, at a later time S3 with new content. When that happens the community will judge what he releases on its merits, although if we don't see a massive polarisation of opinions too I'll be flabbergasted. Rest assured, though, that if it's decent this "dead" game will become seriously popular again.

I don't share that sentiment. It's not a matter of capability or determination. It's a resource vs time issue. At some point a project outgrows it's resource requirements. IMO I think history shows us that passed a few years back.

Quote from TehKill3r :

Call a few proper simulators where you can configure as much as in LFS (or even more), and doesn't have a horrible force-feedback (referring to rFactor)

A game doesn't need flashy graphics to be good. I don't, on a low-regular base, still play the older Need for Speed games just for its graphics, I mean, back then, woo, awesome. Right now, still great, but its the gameplay that does the job in a game.

All sims have their short comings and LFS has it's fair share. It's not just slick gfx, but additional tracks and cars. It's easy to appreciate new cars should come after the tyre/physics update, but there's no reason tracks can't be developed/released in parallel. Users will wait for tyre physics, as any reasonable person can appreciate the difficulty of it. However the poorly understood/illogical decision to withhold other content, has ultimately killed off any chance LFS being popular again in the short to medium term.

Seriously WTF for? Users would pay for the extra content. More money in the devs pockets. Hard to see a downside, yet we continue down this endless path.

Quote from Mountaindewzilla :

I don't think that extrapolating from recent years is fair to Scawen and Eric. If you look at LFS's history, it becomes clear that Scawen is very capable, and can produce excellent stuff in a reasonable amount of time.
Eric's work is subject to the limitations of LFS. Would you want to publish your shiny new assets in an old looking game to make a bunch if ingrates happy for a couple of days?
I certainly wouldn't.

Scawen and Eric are professionals that can produce professional results. Whenever Scawen focuses on something achievable, he produces really good results.
As long as Scawen is working on stuff that enables Eric to produce and publish quality assets, LFS's "resurrection" is a matter of time.

I appreciate what you are trying to say, however what is on the records from the devs doesn't lend credibility to that.

There's been video/photo's of a few bits of new content, so clearly no barrier exist. Even if it did, would it make sense to release a bit bit of new content considering how long it been.

Scawen on numerous times dodged the question of why we haven't seen any new content. First it was waiting for physics updates, then after many questions why there hasn't been any other updates to content unrelated to Tyre physic, it was up to Eric. Historically Eric does read these forums and post rarely (usually unflattering), so it's very unlikely we'll ever get an answer, which is sad as it only creates more speculation and distaste about progress LFS, and very much undermines Scawen efforts.

IMO there's more to it.

How about we just keep racing untill it gets boring. then the sim will die and they pay the price. It's not like we spend hundereds of dollars to this(uhm iracing.. uhm)

The devs will never speed up developing (if they are) just because of us telling them to do so. And definetly Ddossing doesn't help either.

That's pretty much the case now. Ignore the cruise server and competition servers, it pretty hard to find a race you can join casually. Especially outside the EU. People might snub the need to casual servers, but it's an important entry point to new players.

If they'd release a content pack (paid even) it would provide a much needed injection to revive the community.

Quote from sinbad :

I still think you're missing something here though.
Let's say LFS is no more, and Scawen just says "I'm moving on to the next thing", and a year or two later he releases a racing game "Thrill Of Racing" or whatever, and it's brilliant. The sim community love it, everyone buys it, big online community. Great. Who here would say such a thing is impossible? Not me. We know what Scawen is capable of.
So now instead of it being called "Thrill of Racing", let's call it "Live for Speed S3". Do you really think it would be less likely to become popular?

The point is that only Scawen can decide when LFS has run its course. Until we hear that he has ceased development and intends to shut down the master server, nobody can say LFS is dead. As far as we know he is going to release an update and if not at that time, at a later time S3 with new content. When that happens the community will judge what he releases on its merits, although if we don't see a massive polarisation of opinions too I'll be flabbergasted. Rest assured, though, that if it's decent this "dead" game will become seriously popular again.

Sinbad, you're wasting your breath, or typing shall we saw. There are types of people in this world who want to revel in other people's failures, or perceived failures. It's like some people get some weird perverse enjoyment out of it, mainly because they want to bring down people who've achieved something to their level.

The developers couldn't have been more clear about the situation LFS is finding itself in, so any discussion regarding its development that leads to 'it's dead' nonsense is only people trying to make themselves feel better. They are also demonstrating a fundamental misunderstanding of the LFS business model.

You do know is 2013 right? Classic fanboi lines from 08. LOL

Quote from Macfox :

I guess by that definition, it's like saying Margaret Thatcher could rise from the grave.

no

Ah, nice to see some arguing still going on. I've been playing this game since the first release. I don't even remember when it was but I believe it was at the end of 2012.

You could talk ages about death of LFS. How do you define LFS is dead? Dead development? Dead community? I'd say the community defines if it's living or not. Developers defines the gaming experience. Nevertheless, I haven't played LFS actively since 2008 because life happened. But I'm still waiting for S3 and hoping I could someday continue playing. LFS is definitely the best driving sim I've ever played. Maybe not the most entertaining all the time but this is not a commercial game so I don't expect it to be.

Just saying - I just finished Monkey Island 1 & 2 on my iPhone. Still waiting a new one to come, even though Luca's Arts will be dead.

Quote from kone :

Just saying - I just finished Monkey Island 1 & 2 on my iPhone. Still waiting a new one to come, even though Luca's Arts will be dead.

Don't stop there. It goes on and on.
http://www.mobygames.com/game-group/monkey-island-series

Quote from Macfox :

IMO there's more to it.

It certainly seems that way, doesn't it?
You've made some interesting and valid points.

I wanted to buy into blind optimism, but I have to read the writing on the wall and stop expecting anything.

Also, http://hitboxteam.com/dustforce-sales-figures

Quote from Macfox :

If they'd release a content pack (paid even) it would provide a much needed injection to revive the community.

So one second you're saying it's dead, the next you're saying that a release of content would revive interest.
Dead has to be dead. If a car or track release would increase the numbers playing, it's not dead any more than Gran Turismo was dead between 4 and 5.

If you're saying they will never release anything else, then okay, but however long it takes it is still only Scawen that can really make that statement.

Quote from Mountaindewzilla :

Also, http://hitboxteam.com/dustforce-sales-figures

very very interesting article!

imo LFS has a different curve. Dustforce (the game from the link) is a variety of a platformer. sort of a rev of ninja gaiden. it's also on Steam and the target audience is likely not going to play the same game very long. all that adds up to spurts of sales in response to flashy Steam ad campaigns. again, imo.

LFS sales are likely more like Minecraft. Minecraft on one hand has a target audience of anyone with a computer, whereas LFS targets the small hardcore racer niche. Within their respective markets, though, their penetration is similar: a small start and as the word spreads about their coolness, people buy in.

It's not such a strange comparison.. think about it, you start up iRacing and there you are, given the schedule of races for the car/track you're interested in. Go sign up for a race and practice in the meantime. in LFS or Minecraft you start the sim and you're sitting there at your spawn with no fixed goal, just a simulated environment.

Quote from Mountaindewzilla :

It certainly seems that way, doesn't it?
You've made some interesting and valid points.

I wanted to buy into blind optimism, but I have to read the writing on the wall and stop expecting anything.

Also, http://hitboxteam.com/dustforce-sales-figures

Interesting article. You'd probably expect similar sales pattern for LFS. Many parallels, but they also had the steam platform and the Humble bundle, which is a trade off. Cut on the sales for more exposure/marketing. I don't think LFS devs would subscribe to such a concept/model ever. They like to do everything independant.

Quote from sinbad :

So one second you're saying it's dead, the next you're saying that a release of content would revive interest.
Dead has to be dead. If a car or track release would increase the numbers playing, it's not dead any more than Gran Turismo was dead between 4 and 5.

If you're saying they will never release anything else, then okay, but however long it takes it is still only Scawen that can really make that statement.

Splitting hair much. If your logic defines 1 player playing the game, means it's not all over/dead for LFS and that helps you maintain the blind optimism, great.


GT is a perfect example of what to do in respect to maintaining interest in the franchise/series. They actually release concept/updated games between major releases to keep the community engaged/interested in the game. Something LFS has failed to do.


Personally I wish LFS could return to it's greatness, but it's not IMO. Personally I think the devs are blinded by the those that still buy into the blind optimism and are over represented on this forum. As attrition takes it's course on those that have lost faith in the devs/game and leave, the remaining reinforce each others belief everything is sweet and dandy.

The reality is that the kettle has been allowed to boil dry for too long and the kettles F'd. It's the end of an era for LFS. Hypothetical a release of some sort would revive it for the few still interested, but it would take a series of releases and concerted effort by the devs to restore confidence, in the games future.

Quote from Macfox :

Splitting hair much. If your logic defines 1 player playing the game, means it's not all over/dead for LFS and that helps you maintain the blind optimism, great.


GT is a perfect example of what to do in respect to maintaining interest in the franchise/series. They actually release concept/updated games between major releases to keep the community engaged/interested in the game. Something LFS has failed to do.


Personally I wish LFS could return to it's greatness, but it's not IMO. Personally I think the devs are blinded by the those that still buy into the blind optimism and are over represented on this forum. As attrition takes it's course on those that have lost faith in the devs/game and leave, the remaining reinforce each others belief everything is sweet and dandy.

The reality is that the kettle has been allowed to boil dry for too long and the kettles F'd. It's the end of an era for LFS. Hypothetical a release of some sort would revive it for the few still interested, but it would take a series of releases and concerted effort by the devs to restore confidence, in the games future.

mister dramaticpants, if you think this game is dead, then why are you still here?

Probally by the same reason as us others, forever hoping for a patch (with new tracks and whatever car) tho we at same time don't expect one.

Don't like the topic, then find another one. No one is forcing to participate.