Quote from ImudilaSkyline :

But they need to deal with it, there will always be people who don't like their work. They just can't do the same every year with the same progress report. It's like betraying the loyal community, that has been here since the birth of the game, because of the haters... It's just not right.

I wholeheartly agree.

Quote from ImudilaSkyline :

But they need to deal with it

They did deal with it.

They stopped posting information about what they are working on, except very general info occasionally. Seems like a pretty good way of dealing with it to me ?

If they had kept going like in the early days, they would have a very difficult choice: either Just ignore all the negative feedback, leaving a forum full of criticisms of their game - really bad idea... or take time out of development to answer all the idiots (over and over again) - another really bad idea.

Now, people just criticize them and their development approach. Which is much safer to ignore.

After so many years of their current approach, it is still working for them, so why would they change?

Quote from col :

After so many years of their current approach, it is still working for them, so why would they change?

How is it working? It may be more comfortable for them but the community is falling apart because of the lack of communication except from the occasional reports which usually tell the same story.


I have been here since 2010 so I haven't witnessed the release of S1 and S2, of which the last was almost 8 years ago and they were huge. Things weren't like that back then, the devs were communicating with the community, but the community also used to be smaller. The community has grown since that. The updates were "simpler" then, because IMO those can't really be compared to the tyre psyhics, that Scawen is doing by himself.

The VWS was postponed at the end of 2008 and Scawen has since then been working on a completely new tyre model, that probablly even he didn't consider seriously that it would take so much time.

I know many will disagree but maybe it's the time now to increase the amount of developers because it really seems that Scawen has taken on something a little too big even for him. The community itself already has people that could probablly help the devs. I know, that it would be astonishing if a 3-man team could do a game with the best tyre psyhics in the world, but the huge task has already taken almost 4 years.

I have a lot more thoughts to rant about but my english skills aren't good enough to express myself so I hope you get my point

Quote from Intrepid :

'Withheld'? lol What the hell does that mean?

I guess it hard to appreciate, when you weren't around at the start to participate.

Quote from col :

They did deal with it.

They stopped posting information about what they are working on, except very general info occasionally. Seems like a pretty good way of dealing with it to me ?

If they had kept going like in the early days, they would have a very difficult choice: either Just ignore all the negative feedback, leaving a forum full of criticisms of their game - really bad idea... or take time out of development to answer all the idiots (over and over again) - another really bad idea.

Now, people just criticize them and their development approach. Which is much safer to ignore.

After so many years of their current approach, it is still working for them, so why would they change?

Oh please . You know better Col. When their was regular engagement (from the beginning) with the community, it was positive. Plenty of positive feedback and constructive criticism. Interaction with many dedicated individuals that took time to analyse the games finer details and report back their conclusions/bugs and assist in making improvements. Many addon developers exchanged ideas with Scawen to expose more API's to interface with. Anyone that's been around here long enough know who these people are. I could go on.... All of this has largely disappeared, as LFS stagnated and it's future became unclear. The community has only soured as the devs withdrew from the community.

Overwhelming the negativity in this forum is around development and progress of the game. While there might have been some criticism around parts of the game itself it's only minor. It's the development stagnation that has highlighted the areas of the game that are now dated and subsequently received such criticism. After all it was Scawen who said years ago, "there's nothing to report", when addressing questions about tailing off of progress reports. It was certainly not negative feedback out the game (features/play).

I have been trying not to come here and read any of these threads related to the suposed "development", but im weak, and here i am...and i cant help it to feel mad about this situation.

I cant believe some ppl are even saying things like " oh scawen, if we behave can you give report or release patch??" . What patch?? Its been 5 years!!

What bothers me the most, is that scawn has a gold mine here, he also has the pickaxe to mine it, he even has the means to transport it, melt it, and sell it!!..... but he prefers to spend 10 years developing a new lightbulb so he can put on his helmet in order to see better inside the mine......ridiculous.

The day S3 or any other RELEVANT patch comes out, its the day i wont even care anymore...and that makes me sad and uninterested in the game...in fact its been months since i last played LFS...yet i still visit the forum pretty much everyday.

Scawen, if you still have any plans to release a patch, just f***ing do it right now. Aren't you tired of all this crap? All we really want is new cars and tracks. ITS THAT SIMPLE! Why make a storm in a glass of water?? You can still keep working on the tyres....

"oh im still working on the tyre physics, blablabla, yada yada yada.....its too dificult...its taking more time then i though..." No offense, but who gives a crap?? Patience has its limits...if you "promisse" something, then by all means, just stick to your word man, or you risk all your credibility ( but im sorry to say that ship has already sailed for me... )

Swallow your pride and just give the people what they want. You have at least one track and one car ready to go for YEARS now...whats stoping you?

I apologise if i sound harsh, but this is what i think. And this is why i avoid coming to these topics .

Coming to the forums every day, how nice.. But fail to read.

How can you feel mad about a product you spend 90.000 km with and has cost you 24 pounds? What else do you expect for 24 pounds, your answer to the meaning of life?

By the way, as a personal nit-pick, I wanted to point out that S3 is NOT a version of the software, as some tend to refer to it as. It is simply a descriptor of the content/features that are available at that licence level. Sauce

Also, for me from the perspective of New Dimension Racing, one should not plan their lives or their full anticipations on what is planned, or announced, or really even promised. The world is too uncertain to get your hopes up too high. NDR and therefore by extension myself cannot plan things on things we don't already have access too. Sure, we always keep an eye on things to come, and consider what we'd do if a new track comes out during a season, and other features. It's why we have rules in our sporting code about when we use software versions, that way we can avoid conflicts or sudden changes that would impact the quality of our events.

I still see great racing time and time again, even in this "stagnant" LFS period. Yes, I concede that development OUTPUT (output is different than actual development...I can only base off of the output, what I receive on my HDD, not what might actually be going on that we don't yet know about) is lower than desired, but there is absolutley NOTHING stopping people from having great races. The software works, it has all the tools for racing, drivers just need to embrace the fact that no two races are the same. Racing is about the competition, the enjoyment, the camaraderie.

Every patch that is issued, no matter how feature-rich or feature-lacking does have meaning. It is progress, no matter how apparently small. Code improvements here, bug fixes there. If it benefits the game, it benefits the community. Making a product better is natural, it is necessary.

Don't lose the plot - remember what was a big draw for some to this (including me) - it was the great community, the great racing seen, the opportunities to spend your time racing. Enjoy yourselves, you only live once...there's no point in squabbling about whether three men are working or on an island somewhere instead of working on their product. Populate a racing server, make a skin, do a league, banter about your RL car(s).

Life carries on, whether or not the tyre physics, or whatever comes out now, 5 minutes from now, 5 years from now, or never.


tl;dr Racing is life. Everything before and after is just waiting.

@dekojester: do you wear your underpants even it is a week old ?
I'd like to give you another example:

you'd love nothing more then playing PC, now someone promissing you that he would like to buy a graphic card for you. You dont have enough money to buy your own and u never had a graphic card and its the first one ever in your life.

After 5-6 Years have you never get a graphic card even as he has promised you that you will get one.

Promised?

Quote from JazzOn :

Promised?

Scawen has always been careful to never make promises. Which is a good thing.

Quote from dekojester :

Don't lose the plot - remember what was a big draw for some to this (including me) - it was the great community, the great racing seen, the opportunities to spend your time racing. Enjoy yourselves, you only live once...there's no point in squabbling about whether three men are working or on an island somewhere instead of working on their product. Populate a racing server, make a skin, do a league, banter about your RL car(s).

You make some great points.

The key to resurrecting LFS is fresh content. As with many things in life, people seek new challenges. New content will provide that and stimulate the community so we see more active players, more leagues/comps and all the peripheral activity that follows.

However only the devs can kick start this and holding content updates to ransom, over an indefinite update for physics is counter productive disenfranchising 1000's of players. Trying to simulate the community to return to LFS, without the support of the devs isn't achievable in any practical sense.

Bring forward to content release, players will rejoice, devs will get some income and work on the physics can continue while we have fun.

I've never encountered with hate posts towards Eric, nor I've ever seen him post anything on the forum. I only remember Scawen making the improved UFR interior and not sure if correct the interior mirror for road cars when all the interiors were being updated, a while ago.

It was simply said that the rest wasn't done or something of that sort and that FZR/FXR/RB4 and all the other that haven't been updated simply hadn't been updated yet. Now, what really boggles me is that this project of interior update for S2 is just left unfinished for years. It feels completely independent of many things. It feels as if it's not years of work. It feels it can be done if there is will, in a very reasonable period. And it looks sensable to be released before the S3 is released obviously.

However, combined with posts about Eric and his troubles with community to say the least about that situation simply makes you conclude that he is a very negative state of mind towards making anything positive for the same people who caused those negative feelings within himself. Combined this with supposed agreement that no content will be released before physics are updated and it's a stalled situation we have on car interior updates for years. We need to see that a few updates to interior models don't make much to improve sales of S2 and that this would simply be for the current S2 community. It feels very sad to say that we might have pushed him away from completing that project.

I can't apologize for people who might have caused this and just make it all better like that. Still, there should be a way to turn this around and finish at least this little part of project. I know you guys aren't making this for marketing, you never have and perhaps never will. On that note it's easy to see why there sometimes comes all the shitstorm from impatient people, because there simply isn't marketing and they have nothing to rely on other than their opinion as they're rarely familiar with what's really going on. It's quite obvious why there isn't things like development blog. You don't have a simple marketing strategy to start with, so why some people thing there could even be a blog about the whole thing is beyond reason.

I'm sure Eric you do want to feel that sense of accomplishment again and again and again. Surely, you're not working on this for money as your primary motive. You're the only one who can turn the things around for your part of the project. You don't have to like or hate the sort of attention that community gives you to enjoy your own thing. Just look deep down within yourself and you'll find your drive. If you need anything to confirm this just look at Kimi Raikkonen and the way he has handled situation such as that times and times over and over again to enjoy his own thing. Actions reach far wider distances than the words ever can do.

Quote from Macfox :

You make some great points.

The key to resurrecting LFS is fresh content. As with many things in life, people seek new challenges. New content will provide that and stimulate the community so we see more active players, more leagues/comps and all the peripheral activity that follows.

However only the devs can kick start this and holding content updates to ransom, over an indefinite update for physics is counter productive disenfranchising 1000's of players. Trying to simulate the community to return to LFS, without the support of the devs isn't achievable in any practical sense.

Bring forward to content release, players will rejoice, devs will get some income and work on the physics can continue while we have fun.

I'm sorry, but I've never read so much rubbish in all of my life.

Do you walk into you local shop and berate the shop owners for not decorating or updated their stock? I am willing to bet you've never done that. Why? Because it would be borderline crazy.

Do any forum members realise who stupid they sound telling the developers how to do THEIR jobs for them. If i wanted to know about developing sims who would I rather ask? Scavier - who has created a world leading simulator OR Macfox - some dude on a forum who has never achieved anything close to what Scavier have achieved?

It's exactly like when fans criticise bands for changing their musical direction. As if somehow a band creating music FOR the fans is much more important than creating music that satisfies THEMSELVES.

Am I the only one who sees this because http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG7LjVCj50Y

The history was deleted so it's difficult to make sense of what has transpired over the years. Eric has never really participated actively in the forum/community (though clearly he does read occasionally), so it's safe to say it really wasn't the communities making, but a personal decision. The subsequent negativity has probably cemented his decision, based upon the few posts he has made defending his decisions.

It's a sad situation. Rather than being celebrated as a talented graphic artist, which clearly he is, he's become a negative focal point.

Quote from Macfox :

When their was regular engagement (from the beginning) with the community, it was positive. Plenty of positive feedback and constructive criticism....

That is true - but only for the early days. As the game became more popular over time, things changed, reception of new updates became less and less about constructive criticism and more and more just complaints and rudeness. It was only _after_ the community response turned sour in this way that the devs cut back on their interaction and stopped posting their hopes and plans, regular development reports etc.

Quote from Intrepid :

I'm sorry, but I've never read so much rubbish in all of my life.

Do you walk into you local shop and berate the shop owners for not decorating or updated their stock? I am willing to bet you've never done that. Why? Because it would be borderline crazy.

Do any forum members realise who stupid they sound telling the developers how to do THEIR jobs for them. If i wanted to know about developing sims who would I rather ask? Scavier - who has created a world leading simulator OR Macfox - some dude on a forum who has never achieved anything close to what Scavier have achieved?

It's exactly like when fans criticise bands for changing their musical direction. As if somehow a band creating music FOR the fans is much more important than creating music that satisfies THEMSELVES.

Am I the only one who sees this because http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG7LjVCj50Y

Not another coffee/shop analogy... Not even going to try and make sense how it could be relevant to the current situation in any twisted sense... Do you own, run or work in a coffee shop perhaps and have a larger issue you'd like to grind us with.

Heaven forbid a customer make a request or a suggestion in the interest of the products success. This is how the real world works. :rolleyes:

Don't generalise. This isn't about technical disciplines that the devs has shown great competence in. This particular aspect of this discussion is more about project management, marketing and customer relations, which isn't unique to LFS and certainly far from an outstanding achievement.

Go ask the devs if you want to know about sim development in particular. I and I'm sure many others would careless.

...oh we got a music band analogy now too.... Sigh

Quote from Macfox :

Rather than being celebrated as a talented graphic artist, which clearly he is, he's become a negative focal point.

Millions of people decide to give less power then they are actually capable of. Doesn't necessarily imply they are unhappy, negative or whatever.

It goes wrong when people depend their state of happiness on the productivity of others. This is whats going on here.

Quote from col :

That is true - but only for the early days. As the game became more popular over time, things changed, reception of new updates became less and less about constructive criticism and more and more just complaints and rudeness. It was only _after_ the community response turned sour in this way that the devs cut back on their interaction and stopped posting their hopes and plans, regular development reports etc.

Absolutely... What's happened, has happened. It's a tough experience for the devs. One thing's for sure, despite the varying opinion here on development, the overwhelming consensus is there's still a lot of passion in the community. Hopefully the devs can turn a page and turn it around in time for the better of LFS and it's fans.

Quote from cargame.nl :

Millions of people decide to give less power then they are actually capable of. Doesn't necessarily imply they are unhappy, negative or whatever.

Regards of why, when or how, Eric's become a lightening rod for discontent. Some would argue the fairness of that based on their exposure to his interaction. Those that had the opportunity to see those posts would largely say he has a negative mindset towards the community and could careless what anyone here thinks of him or his work (ethic). The fact that he deleted his history though, hints he's does care to some degree. He's a man of mystery for sure.

Quote from Macfox :

Don't generalise. This isn't about technical disciplines that the devs has shown great competence in. This particular aspect of this discussion is more about project management, marketing and customer relations, which isn't unique to LFS and certainly far from an outstanding achievement.

I have to use analogies to describe how crazy it is to tell a someone how they should run their own business. There is no set way to run a business. Some run for pure profit, some run because they love what they do. I suspect LFS is the latter. It comes across as extremely patronising, and somewhat stupid to rock up on a forum and somehow you think you know better than Scawan, when clearly you don't. In fact nothing is more off-putting than someone telling you what THEY would do... when they have NEVER done it.

And this customer relationship thing.... you have made a one-off payment of approximately £24. Now, I am 100% LFS has delivered more than above the value of the purchase price. If LFS were some subscription based system, then on-going customer relations would obviously be more important, but it clearly isn't. They've over-delivered with that price point. Do you really think someone is your slave for life because you spent £24. You probably spend more a week on fuel but I doubt you're on BP's forums moaning about their marketing strategy.

The narrow-mindedness of thinking LFS should work in a way you proscribe is so ridiculous. LFS developers have been VERY clear... now to repeat.... V.E.R.Y clear how they approach the sim game and what they took up LFS.

Obviously you have a certain PoV and you welcome to share that. However it's certainly not widely accepted.

Being patronising and presuming of others rather than focusing on the topic doesn't really match the traits you seem to expect of others does it?

Couple of points. S2 isn't finished. Cost of the product is irrelevant. The devs set the price and the milestones. If that were the issue plenty would pay more for more? No realistic person is expecting a free lunch or to "enslave" the devs.

If well proven principles of business, that have served world for god knows how long, is narrow minded and ridiculous to apply to LFS, then I want some of that crack you are smoking.

The current approach is unconventional, largely directionless and undefined (at least to future and current customers). Absence of approach doesn't equate a clear approach. If it were clear as you seem to claim, we wouldn't see the typical "WTF is going on with LFS" sentiment/posts here...would we?

I don't think anybody is asking that you like it. I know I've posted enough times that it's disappointing that LFS never flourished. Anyone that likes LFS wants nothing more than for it to explode back in to life, and everyone accepts that there are probably ways that that could have happened, and probably those ways would also have made the devs more money.

The point is that it's their prerogative. Their decisions. Complaining is one thing, talking down to them like they haven't asked themselves these questions and giving them these ultimatums, or proclaiming that their product is dead with no real facts, is just wrong. Making such statements in what is in effect their shop window, this forum where they allow to us rant and rave freely, to their great credit, (they do still sell S2 licenses) is also very disrespectful, and potentially damaging.

I can say no more anyway. Peace.

Quote from Macfox :

If well proven principles of business, that have served world for god knows how long, is narrow minded and ridiculous to apply to LFS, then I want some of that crack you are smoking.

The current approach is unconventional, largely directionless and undefined (at least to future and current customers). Absence of approach doesn't equate a clear approach. If it were clear as you seem to claim, we wouldn't see the typical "WTF is going on with LFS" sentiment/posts here...would we?

If I recall correctly it was being part of the 'well proven principles of business' that the developers didn't want to be trapped by in the first place hence why they started LFS.

See, now this is a concept I know you really struggle with you, but .....wait for it..... NOT EVERYONE IS THE SAME.

You get your pop stars who will release an album every year, and pump out singles when they can....in a clear and business minded fashion.... and you get bands like Pearl Jam who just do whatever the **** they want. BOTH are valid. One thing is for sure I wouldn't want to listen to purely profit business minded music all day.

LFS development is as clear as day, if you can expand your mind enough to realise that the concept of 'its done when its done', if isn't too much for you. That's the beauty of business. You get your profit hardliners, and you get your more free 'do what we want' guys. There is no wrong, there is not right. As long as you can continue with what you love doing, that's all that matters.

It's great you have an interest in business, but it sounds like you've done a cheap course on it that fails to reflect the realities of life.

TBH, I doubt this topic has more influence than the front page of the website. If it did, then I'd say they would take action, but in doing so would probably draw more attention to it and alienate/split the community, making it worse.

Quote from Intrepid :

There is no wrong, there is not right. As long as you can continue with what you love doing, that's all that matters.

It's great you have an interest in business, but it sounds like you've done a cheap course on it that fails to reflect the realities of life.

Don't be so pretentious. Be less presumptuous about knowing the devs feelings and PoV. I'm sure if they wanted some speak on their behalf they would do it themselves.

You joke about realities of life. It should be obvious to the educated, but despite all fluffy and feel good hippie advice, there's limits in life, like it or not. While I wish the best for the devs in their pursuit, it's not sustainable at least in the current form. That much is obvious. If it's wrong to try and persuade a change for the greater good of the game, its fans and its future, then maybe it's already too late.