Quote from Chupacabras84 :

...Toca World Touring Cars...

OMG that was an epic game :bowdown:

It still is, played it recently on emulator, grip high a hell but still enjoyable. I dont know, was there another psx game with fully working 3d cockipt.
Great visuals, working cockpit, animation for driver (gear changes), pretty challenging physics, damage model which even now beats everything Gran Turismo, rFactor, LFS, really engaging racing seasons (I almost performed voodoo rituals wishing harm on who ever was in front of me in the table), racing rules (flags, obligatory pitstops, etc).
Colin 2.0 was just as great.

Some time ago played DIRT, wasnt great but wasnt bad either, recently saw DIRT3 and bought it assuming it will be better than DIRT.1.
What a steaming pile of shit, the best graphics and (visual) damage model I seen in racing game but fck me how bad it drives, after a few races, I put it away and never touched again.
Codemasters has really fallen.

GT tends to be more grippy then other Sims but at the same time most racers who play sims say most sims lack Grip compared to real life.

I wouldn't expect GT6 to be too realistic as it has to find a balance since its a Console game, but i do like the constant Evolution im seeing.

It's quite fustrating seeing forza go down the NFS route, they haven't changed their Physics since the first installment all they have done is release new cars and tracks and improve graphics because they seem to think thats a new game, i want them to challenege GT properly and it should help build console sims with some good compeition.

I don't think teh amount of grip is an issue, but more of the perception of what happens on the tarmac. The issue is the tyresound. Looking at TOCA videos (never played it) it's almost better than GT. GT is pretty much one horrrible soundfile played in a loop; even LFS has at least 3 files. For a really good immersion it needs a lot more, though. Any Racing game gains so much credibility or immersion with good tyresounds.

As for realism on console, the problem is to implement the gamepad/analog stciks. How a bout using soemthing like the Mouseacceleration from windows; you make slow input and have slow movement of teh steering in-game. I imagine this way you could handle even a realistic/sensible physic without issues.

But really, the problem again is that the "masses" doesn't want realism, but rather something that looks like it, but requires no effort. Otherwise it wouldn't sell

Quote from JazzOn :

I don't think teh amount of grip is an issue, but more of the perception of what happens on the tarmac. The issue is the tyresound. Looking at TOCA videos (never played it) it's almost better than GT. GT is pretty much one horrrible soundfile played in a loop; even LFS has at least 3 files. For a really good immersion it needs a lot more, though. Any Racing game gains so much credibility or immersion with good tyresounds.

As for realism on console, the problem is to implement the gamepad/analog stciks. How a bout using soemthing like the Mouseacceleration from windows; you make slow input and have slow movement of teh steering in-game. I imagine this way you could handle even a realistic/sensible physic without issues.

But really, the problem again is that the "masses" doesn't want realism, but rather something that looks like it, but requires no effort. Otherwise it wouldn't sell

I understand the masses want NFS rather then Iracing but i think the console sims should have a two tier system on physics that caters for both sides.

The plus effect is you get the mass market whilst keeping credibility with the hardcore community and real racers.

Quote from JazzOn :

As for realism on console, the problem is to implement the gamepad/analog stciks. How a bout using soemthing like the Mouseacceleration from windows

On GT 5 you have speed dependable steering lock, the bigger the speed the less you can turn your wheels, you cant disable it and because of that you can never exceed slip angle when playing on sixaxis, terrible decision it dampens car steering to the point it feels like on rails.
During drifts this steering locks is disabled so you can apply countersteer.

Quote from JazzOn :

But really, the problem again is that the "masses" doesn't want realism, but rather something that looks like it, but requires no effort. Otherwise it wouldn't sell

I think its misconception of simracers and some developers, I mean seriously, who wouldn't want a car behaving in realistic manner where you can apply existing techniques and where you actually need skill to drive.

Quote from JazzOn :

I don't think teh amount of grip is an issue, but more of the perception of what happens on the tarmac

Quote from JazzOn :

The issue is the tyresound

Quote from JazzOn :

As for realism on console, the problem is to implement the gamepad/analog stciks

Quote from JazzOn :

But really, the problem again is that the "masses" doesn't want realism

Excellent points you have there

Regarding the control with gamepad, if they adjust the physics of the game to be playable with a damn joystick, they're ruining the simulation straight away. A game that claims to be "The real driving simulator" should not support any other input that a steering wheel. But of course, that ends up in your last point: masses would not buy it

Quote from Mustafur :

GT tends to be more grippy then other Sims

I don't really feel it that way. What I've realised is that most GT players install racing or sport soft tires to every single car they get. All my cars (more than 300) are completely stock, including tires, and I would say that the amount of grip I feel in a Type R EK9 is not far from the XFG in LFS.

Quote from Mustafur :

I understand the masses want NFS rather then Iracing but i think the console sims should have a two tier system on physics that caters for both sides.

The plus effect is you get the mass market whilst keeping credibility with the hardcore community and real racers.

With two fundamentally different physic engines, teh workload for developement would double, while a good input implementation and animations would jus require a bit of thought, if you knwo what i mean.

Two different server types liek arcade or realism, woudl pretty much defeat the illusion for a casual gamer to get the real thing and would only split teh community and create flaming.

I think a seperation based on the input device used, would be the way to go, if at all. This way each player woudl equally have to deal with respective benefits and challenges.

Quote from Chupacabras84 :

I think its misconception of simracers and some developers, I mean seriously, who wouldn't want a car behaving in realistic manner where you can apply existing techniques and where you actually need skill to drive.

Thats exactly the issue. Like a friend of mine, he can drive intraffic, but when it comes to driving on the limit or racign for that matter, he won't get involved cause its too much effort trying to even understand. He wants the adrenalin of speed and racing as simple and easy as it gets. And looking at soem comments on forums or videos, he is by far not alone with this mentality.

The hardcore community wouldn't cut the cost i assume. I mean Kazunori knows how to drive and fully understands it, but in the end he has to sell it

Quote from NitroNitrous :

Regarding the control with gamepad, if they adjust the physics of the game to be playable with a damn joystick, they're ruining the simulation straight away. A game that claims to be "The real driving simulator" should not support any other input that a steering wheel. But of course, that ends up in your last point: masses would not buy it .

I totally agree, and with a smart implementation/simulation of the input device, there wouldn't have to be compromises in the physics. Now i don't know if Mouseacceleration would work out, but i'd imagine so. Playing with a gamepad alway has the issue of over-doing things or having a hard time to quikly move my thumb only millimeter / not enough precision. MA would eliminate a lot of those issues, i think.

Quote from NitroNitrous :

Excellent points you have there

Regarding the control with gamepad, if they adjust the physics of the game to be playable with a damn joystick, they're ruining the simulation straight away. A game that claims to be "The real driving simulator" should not support any other input that a steering wheel. But of course, that ends up in your last point: masses would not buy it



I don't really feel it that way. What I've realised is that most GT players install racing or sport soft tires to every single car they get. All my cars (more than 300) are completely stock, including tires, and I would say that the amount of grip I feel in a Type R EK9 is not far from the XFG in LFS.

Compare low HP road cars and it seems fairly similar to others, but im talking on a race car point of view.

Also the Slip stream effect is much too strong.

Posted by Kaz

Amen to that Kaz..

google translate.

First lap of qualifying top 40. Front downforce missing in Flugplatz, GT-R had flying 15 meters. (Angle of the rear wing is 8 °)
It was also reproduced in the simulation of GT6 which was moving at the same time as the race.
It gets worse when you lower the angle of the rear wing. It does not improve if you do not lower the ride height of the front.

Again some totally not scientific "test" that will be analysed to bits on GT planet because Kaz said so and must clearly be the sign that GT6 has physics so advanced it will blow the competition out of the window for the next decade. (as promised everytime)

Ignoring the fact that a simple change in throttle position mid air will alter the result drastically.

I guess it's the rite of passage for every GT game!

I like how the suspension dropped down, with the wheels off the ground

--

A little edit I did
GT6 in Slow motion, twice the fun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otcoMwyjk3M

Quote from Mustafur :

GT tends to be more grippy then other Sims but at the same time most racers who play sims say most sims lack Grip compared to real life.

I wouldn't expect GT6 to be too realistic as it has to find a balance since its a Console game, but i do like the constant Evolution im seeing.

I always cringe when people post about not having enough grip in sims because lack of grip can mean so many things. It could mean too much drop off at high slip angles (lateral and/or longnitudal), it could mean too little which makes the cars more forgiving, it could be lots of other other smaller things which can make the cars too snappy or lazy or whatever (like aero).

Then there is of course the usual low speed lack of grip which is imho nothing more than a clue that the poster saying it has no idea at all what he is talking about. But most often people just say not enough grip when they think the cars do not spin off immediatelly once the rear steps out like it did in earlier ISI sims. Rarer occurance is when people complain about the physics being too difficult and the oversteer always ends up in icy spins (="no grip").

With gt5 the physics model is simplistic and thus very forgiving. It's not about grip but what affects the grip. Putting two tires off the track usually makes no difference at all, kerbs don't upset the car, bumps don't upset the car and so forth. There is absolutely no effect at all to aero grip depending how the car is yawing or going over bumps and kerbs and the suspension never has any problems with the car jumping around because of bad shock settings.

I don't think it is bad at all to go towards realism from the easy angle. Making it easier than real is imho actually perfect for arcadish racing game like the gt series. But I think it should also be the approach for sims as well. We have had many sims which simply make the cars harder than to real to drive and then slowly make the cars more realistic and less difficult to drive.

In other words just saying "lack of grip" means nothing.

Quote from JJ72 :

Ignoring the fact that a simple change in throttle position mid air will alter the result drastically.

In grand prix legends you could even control the roll of your car with throttle in air. If you released throttle too abruptly you landed on your left side tires when coming down. Not massively but enough to make the landing a bit scary at times...

Nice to see gt series adopting physics features which have been part of pc gaming for over 15 years...

Quote from Chupacabras84 :

....seriously, who wouldn't want a car behaving in realistic manner where you can apply existing techniques and where you actually need skill to drive...

Someone trying to win an F1 race with a gamepad, lying on the sofa while eating doritos and scratching his balls, thus, 90% of the gamers

Since GT series always had this "The Real Driving Simulator" I bought it only for this "Real" part.
I always thought that people who play it, got it for the same reason I did.

People don't really play it for the physics, they might think that it really is a _real_ simulator but it's just because they don't know any better ones like what there is for PC.

Honestly see no reason why is this worthy of a "6" in it's name, they hardly managed to model the 500 premiums.. graphics the same, is it for the leaves?

Quote from Boris Lozac :

Honestly see no reason why is this worthy of a "6" in it's name, they hardly managed to model the 500 premiums.. graphics the same, is it for the leaves?

Lol fanboy.

This will have the most realistic physics ever with the best graphics.

Sadly, people will buy it anyway.

Hm, I'll buy it too, because, while definately NOT a high fidelity physics sim, it's very entertaining car-porn.
EDIT: Just realised that I'm frequenting these forums for over 10 years now. Scary.

Yeah, but you only have 2000 posts in 10 years. It's worse for some of us.

I just realised I joined the forum on April 1st...

Quote from Bose321 :

I just realised I joined the forum on April 1st...

well you are a joke tbh