Thanks Scawen!
I hope it needs not to long for the Update then my LFS is under a 2cm dust layer

Quote from LazLoW :

Seriously? You're gonna twist my words that hard?
Obviously it would be sorted out in a weekend if it was open source.
Wrong.
I don't expect anything to get done in a weekend buddy, but I don't expect any progress from a few guys that obviously don't care about the proper development of this game. Are you even all that interested in slightly tweaked tyre physics? I for one could really care less. They're good as they are. Add some tracks. Some content. Some proper updates that keep proper players interested. Weather, timecycle, and free-roam areas.
Tyre physics, a track or two. And that's S3? C'mon, where's your aspirations man. This sim won't become amazing because of a couple parameter changes. It needs an overhaul. Badly.

Never once have I had such a deep personal "irk" with development before. I love this sim so much. It deserves so much more. No matter how you see it, LFS is neglected.

P.S: telling us 10 months into a year that you "haven't really made serious progress this year." is sign that open source is exactly what this sim needs.

He cares, trust me. This sim is a lot better than others, why, because Scawem puts so much time in it. of course you need a bit of rest from time to time, will give a better product at the end and not a stressed out developper.

It's the strong point that this sim isn't open source, like rFactor. Also I wasn't surprised when we came to the point that it took so long and (almost) everybody started to complain and question. It's one hell of a small development team for a racing sim. Tire models are damn hard to make, definatly on your own.

IMO if it would go open source:
1- the game would go to shit
2- would be more cheaters/hackers
3- community would go away, becasue teh community now doesn't want modding, they want racing (realistic) not shitty mods like FSR and GPVWC

Quote from CodeLyoko1 :

IMO if it would go open source:
1- the game would go to shit
2- would be more cheaters/hackers
3- community would go away

Why, why, and why? The development team would multiply tenfold and then some. Individual teams, working on the separate niches of LFS. The community would not go away in the slightest, it would split and multiply. The drifters on the drift mods, racers on the race mods, and so on. All of the current driving physics would be available, why change them? Why would it go to shit? Please, tell me why, because I'm struggling to find anything.

It's not like it really matters. This is a fantasy I'm dreaming. This sim has been long doomed to a specific fate. Development hell.

Quote from LazLoW :

Why, why, and why? The development team would multiply tenfold and then some. Individual teams, working on the separate niches of LFS. The community would not go away in the slightest, it would split and multiply. The drifters on the drift mods, racers on the race mods, and so on. All of the current driving physics would be available, why change them? Why would it go to shit? Please, tell me why, because I'm struggling to find anything.

the racers wouldn't go on the race mods, because those mods will never be close to the quality as the stuff is now.

As I said, this game has the strong point of not being open source. LFS user from what I've seen and heard everywhere (on forums, servers etc) like the way you don't have to download anything when you go into a server or have to check if you got the right and updated mod. Also because everyone can get to the sources, it's easier to hack stuff and cheat on normal servers (like in FSR happened). Modding is a lot more difficult than what you think i see. The Scirrocco is taking so long simply because of the tire model needs to be changed because it felt weird.

Quote from CodeLyoko1 :

IMO if it would go open source:
1- the game would go to shit
2- would be more cheaters/hackers
3- community would go away, becasue teh community now doesn't want modding, they want racing (realistic) not shitty mods like FSR and GPVWC

1. The game already did when those cruise servers were invented.
2. How? I think most open-source projects prove the opposite.
3. There are always quality mods between the shitty ones, which people will appreciate.

Quote from cargame.nl :

Yes it should be, apart from these track releases which shall give some boost, I don't expect LFS to have a long phosphorous life in the long run. Not enough is happening for that, that also isn't possible with a two men team.

Best possible thing is to open source parts and let the community do their creativity. The team also gets older, much older. Power decreases. It's a natural phenomenon which is not possible to fight.

Quote from LazLoW :

Seriously? You're gonna twist my words that hard?
Obviously it would be sorted out in a weekend if it was open source.
Wrong.
I don't expect anything to get done in a weekend buddy, but I don't expect any progress from a few guys that obviously don't care about the proper development of this game. Are you even all that interested in slightly tweaked tyre physics? I for one could really care less. They're good as they are. Add some tracks. Some content. Some proper updates that keep proper players interested. Weather, timecycle, and free-roam areas.
Tyre physics, a track or two. And that's S3? C'mon, where's your aspirations man. This sim won't become amazing because of a couple parameter changes. It needs an overhaul. Badly.

Never once have I had such a deep personal "irk" with development before. I love this sim so much. It deserves so much more. No matter how you see it, LFS is neglected.

P.S: telling us 10 months into a year that you "haven't really made serious progress this year." is sign that open source is exactly what this sim needs.

None of us are smart enough at tyre physics, car dynamics, programming or deriving algorithms to make LFS BETTER than it is. We would only be a detriment to LFS if it was open source. Besides, the best way to kill progress in any project is to make it open source. The only open source projects that truly flourish and become something excellent are ones that actually have paid employees (by other companies) working on it. Look at the Linux kernel. The vast majority are employed by some company to improve it. Be it Intel, AMD, nVidia, Canonical or Google.

Open Source would be the best way to kill LFS.

Thank you Scawen (and Fordie).
This is actually what it's all about.

PS: personally I am interested in 3D stuff also .

So if Fordie is asking those questions here, and Scawen even answers, then I have to come here and say at least Woohooo!
Well done, Fordie!

Quote from Vykos69 :

So if Fordie is asking those questions here, and Scawen even answers, then I have to come here and say at least Woohooo!
Well done, Fordie!

Cards on the table, I thought Fordie was fairly naïve by asking the question in the way that he was. I was like "srsly, we've done this 1000 times!".

Apparently I was wrong.

Nice post scawen :d:d

if I am right, you are all heavily drunk. 10 years it took to version 0.6, so it should not be that hard for fools, in just another 10 years until version 0.8 to come. The whole is never finished anyway.

Quote from Slowmover :

if I am right, you are all heavily drunk. 10 years it took to version 0.6, so it should not be that hard for fools, in just another 10 years until version 0.8 to come. The whole is never finished anyway.

I am pretty drunk. Our local brewery has released their Winter Ale and it's delicious.

Nice read! Thanks Scawen and thanks Fordi, since it was your thread that somehow worked

Quote from Vykos69 :

So if Fordie is asking those questions here, and Scawen even answers, then I have to come here and say at least Woohooo!
Well done, Fordie!

Hmm... I hoped for more from the legend Why don't you grab some pom-pom, dance for us and post a pic of it

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

Besides, the best way to kill progress in any project is to make it open source.

Drunk could be a possible explanation. I can give numerous examples of successful open source projects (/games) even with unpaid employees. Team Scavier could have a control function to say which makes it in a new release or not.

People can put out of their minds that team Scavier by itself makes much progress. Too many family things and other life enjoyment causing for distraction and realization that some things don't have to be completed to enjoy life.

Thanks Scawen for the honest report.

This thread did not go as low as expected, frustration exists - that also shows some people around here have enough hope and expectations to keep pushing and posting, despite a lack of reserve and social education making them resort to sarcasm or plain abuse.

I am happy to learn there will be new stuff added to LFS, I still enjoy races and will gladly pay for more (also more than 12£ for S3, I think your pricing model could do with an update considering the price/achievements ratio of your competitors).

Time is short for us all, so I'll keep looking towards the Kunos gang as well. No pressure

Thank you for the sim as it is, keep it up!

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

None of us are smart enough at tyre physics, car dynamics, programming or deriving algorithms to make LFS BETTER....

Blah, blah. Nonsense. Just because I recommend open source do you think that you or I will be at the forefront of development? Of course not. Those who undertake the task know what they're doing. If they don't, they won't make it. It's survival of the fittest when it comes to a franchise of mods, and the best ones get the most attention. What you said couldn't be further from the truth.

P.S: You make too many assumptions. Of course somebody might invest in a 3rd party company that's pumping out sweet LFS mods. Anyway, like I said earlier, what I'm dreaming is a fantasy. It'll never happen so there's no point arguing it.

Thanks for the update.

I'm interested to try 3D too. I have Nvidia 3D Vision 1.

It actually did work pretty good in LFS already, even though it wasn't supported. The cockpit view etc had no problems once you adjusted the Convergence. It will be interesting to see how it is with propper 3D support.

so if i understand you correctly unlike victor you and eric are both still working exclusively for lfs but not really at 100%?

Quote from cargame.nl :

Drunk could be a possible explanation. I can give numerous examples of successful open source projects (/games) even with unpaid employees. Team Scavier could have a control function to say which makes it in a new release or not.

People can put out of their minds that team Scavier by itself makes much progress. Too many family things and other life enjoyment causing for distraction and realization that some things don't have to be completed to enjoy life.

Successful racing simulators? It's one thing to create a first person shooter where the only real physics are object collisions (where there's libraries to handle that) or gravity (which is effectively a constant, except for minor deviances depending on your location on the planet).

The skill set to actually create a good racing simulator is extremely extremely specific. Even Dave Kaermer, who has been at it for like 20 years now, still can't create good tyre physics and overall car dynamics.

Quote from LazLoW :

Blah, blah. Nonsense. Just because I recommend open source do you think that you or I will be at the forefront of development? Of course not. Those who undertake the task know what they're doing. If they don't, they won't make it. It's survival of the fittest when it comes to a franchise of mods, and the best ones get the most attention. What you said couldn't be further from the truth.

P.S: You make too many assumptions. Of course somebody might invest in a 3rd party company that's pumping out sweet LFS mods. Anyway, like I said earlier, what I'm dreaming is a fantasy. It'll never happen so there's no point arguing it.

Do you actually think that anyone in the community, or even a team, has the free time, skill, and capability to actually improve LFS? Never mind actually learning a codebase that has been in development for 10+ years, with no one else seeing the code.

Again, the quickest way to kill LFS would be to make it open source. I feel like everyone that seems to suggest open source as a solution are non-developers who have seen Linux and been like "hey, that worked for them", neglecting the knowledge that most people who work on Linux are paid by other organizations.

The other set of people advocating LFS to be open source are faux-developers who have written some simple things in PHP, and think they're pro-devs and that LFS will take a few hours to improve. Which is about as far from the truth as humanly possible. It would take even a skilled programmer weeks/months to become familiar with LFS' code enough to make simple changes, never mind sweeping, game-changing updates.

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

still can't create good tyre physics and overall car dynamics.

I never mentioned that. I mentioned parts of LFS. Extending the InSim capabilities, further optimizing netcode, day/night cycle, DX9/DX11 support, multicore support, anti hack protection, security/payment protection the list goes on and on and on. I'm sorry, Scawen can be some superhero but not that much that he can work on all that.. How optimistic all new update reports are going to be, it's just impossible for one person.

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

It would take even a skilled programmer weeks/months to become familiar with LFS' code...

In my OP, I suggest this should have been done 4 years ago.
We're 10 months into a year with a developer admitting he hasn't done much.
I think I've made my point.

Quote from Matrixi :

Would it help if you had a Rift dev kit? I might be willing to part with mine to get LFS fully supported and ready for the consumer Rift version. Free of cost to you of course.

Thank you for your kind offer. I don't think I will take you up on it, but I'll remember this in case it turns out to be a good idea. I'm guessing that it would be best to convert LFS to DX9 before trying for full Rift support. But I will not think too hard about that yet. I'll get this first version into a suitable condition for testing. I'd like to ask RCkanki if a full-width SBS 3D output (like the first attached image) helps in any way with his type of Oculus Rift support.

Quote from Amynue :

Are these laser scanned or fictional?

Fictional tracks. The only scanned one we have is Rockingham.

Quote from DratsaB :

I'm interested to try 3D too. I have Nvidia 3D Vision 1.

It actually did work pretty good in LFS already, even though it wasn't supported. The cockpit view etc had no problems once you adjusted the Convergence. It will be interesting to see how it is with propper 3D support.

I don't know how that works. Is it a system that uses shutter glasses with a standard monitor? Does it have the option to accept side-by-side (SBS) output from a game and convert that to full screen 3d?

Quote from Shotglass :

so if i understand you correctly unlike victor you and eric are both still working exclusively for lfs but not really at 100%?

We are both working exclusively for LFS. For some months we have not been at 100% but we will be at 100% again. We we are only in our forties and are nowhere near retiring yet.

Quote from Scawen :

I don't know how that works. Is it a system that uses shutter glasses with a standard monitor? Does it have the option to accept side-by-side (SBS) output from a game and convert that to full screen 3d?

Thanks for the update. Nvidia 3dvision sorts everything out, I guess it would be a pretty small coding change to get it working perfectly. I use shutter glasses on my 3d projector. The nvidia drivers convert it to SBS on the fly IIRC.

Quote from cargame.nl :

I never mentioned that. I mentioned parts of LFS. Extending the InSim capabilities, further optimizing netcode, day/night cycle, DX9/DX11 support, multicore support, anti hack protection, security/payment protection the list goes on and on and on. I'm sorry, Scawen can be some superhero but not that much that he can work on all that.. How optimistic all new update reports are going to be, it's just impossible for one person.

Again, who has time for this? It's been clear for a very long time that Scawen et al aren't going to hire more people. It's not something that one can do "in the evenings" like one might think. Learning the code base so that a person could make a small change would take a fairly long time even working 8 hours a day to figure stuff out.

You are probably correct in that doing all of those things by 1 person is impossible, but then again.. why does it all need to be done? Does DX11 support matter? DX9 might be prioritized as Scawen mentions some shader stuff for Oculus Rift, but it can't be such a giant breaking change. I doubt Microsoft went and changed every API to something completely incompatible in 1 DX version.

I don't know why you continue to be around LFS when you're so negative. Every post you make is either "LFS development is so slow, this person is cracker/hacker/cheater, Y U NO OPENSOURCE LFS". You seem so displeased with how LFS is progressing and the community, why be involved in it? Are you some kind of sadist and enjoy the negativity?

Quote from Scawen :

We are both working exclusively for LFS. For some months we have not been at 100% but we will be at 100% again. We we are only in our forties and are nowhere near retiring yet.

good then there is at least hope