WARNING : THIS IS A TEST

NOTE : THIS DOES NOT CONTAIN NEW TYRE PHYSICS / VW SCIROCCO / ROCKINGHAM

PLEASE TEST BEFORE YOU POST

NO OFF-TOPIC FEATURE REQUESTS

NO UNRELATED COMMENTS


Hello Racers, here is a new TEST PATCH : 0.6E4

You can read about LFS development in the main forum :
https://www.lfsforum.net/showt ... php?p=1823294#post1823294

This test patch is fully compatible with version 0.6E

You cannot upload hotlaps made with this test patch because it is only a test patch, not an official patch.

Please keep a backup of your LFS.exe from 0.6E so you can easily go back if there are any problems.


Changes from 0.6E to 0.6E4 :

Stereoscopic 3D support :

In the View Options screen you can select 3D mode on the second line.

Various options will then be available to you :

SBS / TAB - left and right eye images are displayed side by side or top and bottom

half / full - the image is compressed to half width or not compressed

HUD adjustment : Brings the 2D elements closer - this is good for a headset because you can bring the interface as near to you as the steering wheel.

3D adjustment : Makes 3D elements further away - this is good for a TV because the sky and distant objects will appear to be behind your screen.

Notes :

TEST PATCH : THERE ARE NO EXTERNAL VIEWS OR 3D OBJECTS IN THE MENUS WHEN IN 3D MODE

SBS half is a commonly used format and should be available on many 3D TV sets. Horizontal resolution is reduced. Most active shutter displays need to use this option or TAB half. I am interested to know which looks better.

TAB half should be the best option for passive displays which use alternate lines for left and right eye. Vertical resolution is reduced compared with 2D mode but there is no additional loss of resolution on a passive display (which must reduce vertical resolution of a full height image in 3D mode).

SBS full is the closest thing to what is required for an Oculus Rift, but the necessary distortion has not been applied. There is no Oculus Rift tracking support either. You may be able to use intermediate software to use this mode on an Oculus Rift, in which case you should probably use interface scaling to reduce the height of the HUD (Options... Display... Interface).

Other changes :

Lateral and longitudinal accelerometer values now work realistically
FIX : High frequency changes in acceleration were filtered in OutSim
FIX : Helmet stayed the same after changing driver in MP replays


INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS :

A FULL version of LFS 0.6E must already be installed

Open the zip file and drag the specially named LFS exe file into your LFS folder.

NOTE : You can see if the patch is correctly installed when you run
the program. At the bottom of the entry screen : 0.6E4


DOWNLOAD :

TEST PATCH 0.6E4 (ZIP FILE) (if you already have 0.6E) :
www.lfs.net/file_lfs.php?name=LFS_6E4.zip (1.0 MB)

Scawen, stereoscopic is similar to nvidia 3 drivers for non 3d screen? (You have to wear glasses)

If so, I'll give it a go on my 45" which i use anyways

It's working wrong in a mode "Shift+U"

Quote from Bmxtwins :

Scawen, stereoscopic is similar to nvidia 3 drivers for non 3d screen? (You have to wear glasses)

If so, I'll give it a go on my 45" which i use anyways

I don't know how the nvidia software / drivers work. If they can take an input of SBS 3D and output that as sequential 3D for shutter glasses, then it will work. For example, there are SBS 3D videos on youtube... if your glasses with nvidia software can show them in 3D then I guess they can show LFS in 3D.

Quote from [Audi TT] :

It's working wrong in a mode "Shift+U"

Yes, that is a kind of external view. Only driving views work in this first test.

Quote from Scawen :

Yes, that is a kind of external view. Only driving views work in this first test.

Well, I did not see it "TEST PATCH: THERE ARE NO EXTERNAL VIEWS OR 3D OBJECTS IN THE MENUS WHEN IN 3D MODE". I'm sorry. Martin, thanks.

Praises:
This is great ! The depth is there, the interface is readable, and of course it is adjustable like everything in LFS . The chase-cam is perfect ! I feel like putting the hand through the screen and playing with the toy car

Problems:
Driver view: (for my case) I am seeing some ghosting for driver arms and wheel, but this is probably hardware related and not LFS's fault.
The wheel (tried only on FZR, FXR) seems too far from the dashboard (maybe it's the model it self ?).

Suggestions:
I would like, if possible, that the inferior limit of the 3D adjustment goes even lower than it can now.

Nvidia 3D Vision works since it's been released with LFS, and it works absolutely perfect (I can't play LFS anymore without 3D).
It's good though to give this option for other people via SBS option

Is not displayed the car in the garage (Do you aware of this?)

Quote from luchian :

I would like, if possible, that the inferior limit of the 3D adjustment goes even lower than it can now.

Do you mean less than 0.0 or more than 0.1?

Quote from [Audi TT] :

Is not displayed the car in the garage (Do you aware of this?)

Yes, no 3d objects (cars or drivers) in the game setup screen, driver options or garage screen.

Quote from Scawen :

Do you mean less than 0.0 or more than 0.1 ?

What I mean is:
Now, the "0" value still corresponds to a significant offset of the 2 images. I was wondering if it would be possible that the 0 value means even a lower offset. (I am aware that this would reduce the 3D effect). I think it could be useful to identify where the problem lies, when there are issues (referring mostly to the aligning of the 2 images). Hope you get what I try to say

Quote from Scawen :

I don't know how the nvidia software / drivers work. If they can take an input of SBS 3D and output that as sequential 3D for shutter glasses, then it will work. For example, there are SBS 3D videos on youtube... if your glasses with nvidia software can show them in 3D then I guess they can show LFS in 3D.

Yes, that is a kind of external view. Only driving views work in this first test.

Well, it lists Live for Speed as a support game, I would assume you would know something about it LOL
http://www.nvidia.com/object/g ... -cd-1.36-beta-driver.html

Given that I intend to do a similar 3D integration in my own game project I'm very interested in what you are doing here, so I've gone and re-installed LFS to try it out!

I'm using a Tesco own brand 3D telly (Technika) which is great as a 3D telly but didn't work terribly well with nVidia 3DTV play, I tried it with Assassins Creed III and found that areas of high contrast appeared at different depths, which caused terrible trouble for my eyes when anywhere near a shadow.

I'm one of these people who does ocassionally suffer a cross-eyed sensation with 3D, especially when things come out of the screen toward me.

(on a side note, the telly doesn't support watching copyright protected media content off a PC either - gotta love how legit users suffer...).

So firing up the LFS native side by side 3D support I was pleased to be able to very quickly get a 3D setting that I found comfortable. I had a good sensation of depth and didn't get the cross eyed feeling at all.

Admittedly part of that might be because of LFS' fairly midday look and feel, there isn't much in the way of areas of high contrast so I tried South City Town in the evening which has a lot more shadows. I experienced no depth perception problems at all.

For my next test I switched to top and bottom 3D and the difference was stunning, I had a much better and more defined perception of distance. The side by side 3D seemed more flat by comparison to the top to bottom.

The road surface at South City with it's painted lines quickly compelled me to ramp up the mip mapping to maximum. I don't know if I lost my maxxed out AA + AF or something, but after this change it felt almost jaw dropping.

As someone who enjoys 3D films, but hasn't really played much in the way of 3D games because of the failure of my trial period of 3DTV being such a disappointment, I have to say I was thoroughly impressed with LFS' 3D support and how it circumnavigated the need for that overpriced nVidia program that doesn't even work properly!

Like all things LFS, that which is done is done very well indeed.

Now you just need to get a mountain bike in as a car option and I'm sure you'll be motivated to get that physics update out in no time :P

I don't own a 3d TV, but I'm guessing these nvidia drivers would be able to do the same, but before I go installing thousands of things and buying glasses, can anyone confirm?

nVidia 3D Vision as stated always worked perfect with LFS, save the for topic I made a long time ago where there were frustum problems at the very edge of the screen.

nVidia uses some clever (but straightforward) maths to generate two different perspectives based on information in the frame buffers. The only time it doesn't work well is when rendering shortcuts (or deferred rendering) are used and there is no Z depth information present. It's actually possible to fix those shaders with an injector which is exactly what HeliXMod does - he's made a lot of fixes.

There is no translation needed for LFS's 3D options, these options will simply make it easy for everyone that has other 3D solutions to enjoy LFS in 3D. So anyone with 3D Vision doesn't need to worry about this test patch or use this new functionality.

Gaming in 3D is much much different than crappy "cinema" 3D which has barely any depth and kind of gives 3D entertainment a bad rap. LFS in 3D is excellent, as is everything else - couldn't go back now if I wanted to.

Edit: BMX Twins: 3D Vision works directly with specific 120Hz monitors. I'm using the Asus VG278H which has the IR emitter for their glasses built in. Using 3D Vision with a 3DTV requires 3DTVPlay software (yes it's lame that you have to buy that considering 3D Vision drivers are included with every nVidia driver install whether you use it or not; in fact you can try 3D Vision Discover using red/blue glasses just to get an idea of what the depth would look like at least) I'd guess it's just their cash grab so that you have to buy "something" in order to use 3D without buying their kit/glasses.

Quote from Becky Rose :

I'm one of these people who does ocassionally suffer a cross-eyed sensation with 3D, especially when things come out of the screen toward me.

This is a sign that the paralax convergence of the images is too high. It's not just a sensation, it's because your eyes are over converging trying to see the object coming out of the screen.

Quote :

So firing up the LFS native side by side 3D support I was pleased to be able to very quickly get a 3D setting that I found comfortable. I had a good sensation of depth and didn't get the cross eyed feeling at all.

...

For my next test I switched to top and bottom 3D and the difference was stunning, I had a much better and more defined perception of distance. The side by side 3D seemed more flat by comparison to the top to bottom.

This is interesting, I don't know why it would be different; the two images should be the same whether they're fed SBS or not.

This is one thing that nVidia did right; with any game you can adjust both the separation (depth) and the convergence of the two images to get exactly what you want, and save that to a profile that loads every time the game is run.

I'm not sure what options are present in LFS but to do 3D "properly" both the separate amount and the convergence point need to be adjustable. For example I like to have the dash board slightly out of the screen because it makes my steering wheel line up right where it should be but someone not used to that might get that "crosseyed" effect you were talking about.

Quote :

support and how it circumnavigated the need for that overpriced nVidia program that doesn't even work properly!

3D TV Play works perfect as long as you use a "supported" TV, or do a nice EDID over-ride

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

3D TV Play works perfect as long as you use a "supported" TV, or do a nice EDID over-ride

I don't know what an EDID overide is, but I figured the problem with Assassins Creed III was that the shadows where done under deferred rendering and had no z-depth. The sad part is that Assassins Creed III was billed as the top supported 3D game for 3DTV at the time I tried it, it even came bundled with the 3D graphics card.

With the LFS approach of rendering two distinct viewports this problem is eradicated completely, which is good because it gives 3D support to more people regardless of the issue I had with nVidia's effort.

Becky, EDID override would allow you to make an unsupported TV appear as a supported TV. EDID is used to detect what modes a display supports.

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

Becky, EDID override would allow you to make an unsupported TV appear as a supported TV. EDID is used to detect what modes a display supports.

The 3D worked, it was just utterly dissappointing *shrug*

Anyway LFS didn't have those issues, and even if there is a patch for the nVidia 3DTV it makes no odds to me because my trial expired and I am not shelling out for something that didn't work very well.

Daymn shame that VIZIO doesn't allow 'game mode' in 3D.

Also, 3D in LFS strains my eyes too much so... bummer. :bigeyes2:

Looking forward to new tracks though

Quote from Becky Rose :

The 3D worked, it was just utterly dissappointing *shrug*

Anyway LFS didn't have those issues, and even if there is a patch for the nVidia 3DTV it makes no odds to me because my trial expired and I am not shelling out for something that didn't work very well.

Sorry for not mentioning - you'd best check the 3D Vision ratings on games before firing them up; AC3 just plain does not work with 3D vision - everything is screwed up. The drivers themselves tell you "not recommended" when you fire up the game.

Quote :

Daymn shame that VIZIO doesn't allow 'game mode' in 3D.

Also, 3D in LFS strains my eyes too much so... bummer.

Looking forward to new tracks though

What solution are you using to run LFS in 3D? What kind of strain are you experiencing?

When it's set up properly, 3D is LESS strain on my eyes over long sessions - your eyes are not locked into converging on a single (for all intents and purposes) distance in front of you. When I'm driving LFS (or AC tech these days), that convergence point ranges from just in front of my monitor for the gauges, to somewhere very far away (the background scenery), and everything in between - braking markers are effectively in my neighbors house when I look at them. Although the focal point is the same because the image itself is still close, at least the function of your eyes is a lot closer to reality than trying to force your brain to resolve depth out of a 2D image.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Sorry for not mentioning - you'd best check the 3D Vision ratings on games before firing them up; AC3 just plain does not work with 3D vision - everything is screwed up. The drivers themselves tell you "not recommended" when you fire up the game.



What solution are you using to run LFS in 3D? What kind of strain are you experiencing?

When it's set up properly, 3D is LESS strain on my eyes over long sessions - your eyes are not locked into converging on a single (for all intents and purposes) distance in front of you. When I'm driving LFS (or AC tech these days), that convergence point ranges from just in front of my monitor for the gauges, to somewhere very far away (the background scenery), and everything in between - braking markers are effectively in my neighbors house when I look at them. Although the focal point is the same because the image itself is still close, at least the function of your eyes is a lot closer to reality than trying to force your brain to resolve depth out of a 2D image.

I'm pretty sure it's the focal point, but it's only affecting LFS. I can watch a SBS 3D movie just fine, I can look around and my eyes are always focused and continuously see the 3D effect. On the other hand while playing LFS I can only focus on one thing, and if I look elsewhere, my eyes have to readjust, causing much eye strain. It's hard to explain, but when I'm focused on what's directly in front of me, if I even so look at the steering wheel and try to look back, I lose focus and have to squint to readjust. I've also tinkered with the 3D settings inside LFS.

Quote from imthebestracerthereis :

I'm pretty sure it's the focal point, but it's only affecting LFS. I can watch a SBS 3D movie just fine, I can look around and my eyes are always focused and continuously see the 3D effect. On the other hand while playing LFS I can only focus on one thing, and if I look elsewhere, my eyes have to readjust, causing much eye strain. It's hard to explain, but when I'm focused on what's directly in front of me, if I even so look at the steering wheel and try to look back, I lose focus and have to squint to readjust. I've also tinkered with the 3D settings inside LFS.

Sounds to me like the separation is too high for you at this point. Again, I'm not being super useful because I'm not running LFS using it's new native stereo rendering - but what you're describing tells me that the separation is too high for your comfort. All it really takes is some getting used to. I believe the reason this happens at first is because your brain isn't used to decoupling a focal point (the physical distance to focus your eyes on an object; like a camera lens) from the convergence point of your two eyes (the point in space that forms a triangle between said point and your eyes). In 3D, the latter distance changes whilst the focal point remains the same (your monitor is not physically further away from you). Movies don't suffer this because the separation is very low and this effect is minimal; and yet people still complain about it sometimes.

When I first bought 3D Vision a few years ago I couldn't run it at full depth (ironically until I had a few beer, then I could crank it up... the next day I'd have to turn it down again). That acclimitisation only lasted a few days though, and as I stated before, I couldn't go back - playing things in 2D quite literally I find much more straining now, not to mention the fact that I can't see everything properly. The 3rd dimension "separates" objects so well that now running 2D makes everything seem like a jumbled mess of objects overlapping each other. I have a nice 3 monitor setup (sadly they're different so I can't use 3D across 3 screens) but I vastly prefer running 3D on one monitor compared to the massive FOV of 3 monitors in 2D.

I'm sorry if this is taking things mildly off track Scawen but you mentioned a newly birthed interest in 3D rendering, and hopefully this all relates to LFS's implementation at least in a roundabout way.

One thing that is a bit difficult for me is the vibration when going over a rumble strip, it helped when I lowered the AA+AF enough to get 90fps whereas with max settings I was running around previously only gave me 45 on the grid to 60 on the open road, but even at 90fps the screen shake was a little uncomfortable comfortable and I really couldn't see much.

This is probably because the eyes aren't updating what's onscreen at the same time.

A way to reduce the amount of shake would be nice.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Sorry for not mentioning - you'd best check the 3D Vision ratings on games before firing them up; AC3 just plain does not work with 3D vision - everything is screwed up. The drivers themselves tell you "not recommended" when you fire up the game.

I just went back and looked and you are right. Sadly at the time I bought my current PC the game had just been released and the 3DTV Play web page list of games was promoting the game above the fold as a highlighted product that gave a good demonstration of what the system was capable of.

Damn the capitalist system!

Quote from imthebestracerthereis :

I'm pretty sure it's the focal point, but it's only affecting LFS. I can watch a SBS 3D movie just fine, I can look around and my eyes are always focused and continuously see the 3D effect. On the other hand while playing LFS I can only focus on one thing, and if I look elsewhere, my eyes have to readjust[..]

This ^^.
Looking at the track (what you usually do when racing) is just fine. But looking at the dashboard (formula cars especially) needs some readjusting time.