Quote from tristancliffe :

Why do you say that? It's mostly the cars that limit overtaking, rather than the drivers. Of course, being some of the best drivers in the world (generally speaking) the overtaking is bound to be less, as everyone is of equal(ish) skill in equal(ish) cars.

Wasn't it Ron Dennis (or someone in the McLaren 'family') that said GP2 would be rubbish if it was just F1 drivers in it because they'd all be about the same speed?

I'm with you for the drivers, I guess most of them could do what e.g. Massa does if they had the chance to sit in a Ferrari - and he's not that much slower than MS.
And while I see that you do not want to suggest that Ferraris and Super-Aguri s are "equal(ish)" cars, I don't think the reason a Ferrari (in most cases) can't overtake a Renault (and the other way round) is that both cars are equally fast. Because in fact, you often see that even if the following car is 1 or 1.5 seconds faster it won't have the slightest chance to overtake, unless the driver in front gently lets him pass or makes an error.
I actually blame the FIA for reducing mechanical grip (for example banning slicks) instead of downforce (dunno.. reduce wing size, ban all those mini wings and displacements, whatever) to slow the cars down. (Reducing engine power was probably a good idea though, just didn't work out at all lol).

I mean, the main reason overtaking is so hard in F1 is imho that you lose so much time without "fresh air" (because the cars rely so much on a proper air flow to have enough grip, see above).

Having said this, I don't want to claim that GP2 only has more takeovers, because the cars rely less on aerodynamics (you have to admit, that they look much "simpler", though). Surely different driver skills have an impact there, too..

Anyway, guess I'm slightly off-topic here..

let me just say I don't mind wheel-to-wheel stuff, but the blatant who-needs-brakes-when-I-have-your-bumper attitude that annoys me, they know when to give room, but they don't (re Matt Neal)

Quote from ajp71 :

6. No TC means drivers make more mistakes and leave oportunities.

Indeed and it also leaves more room for driver's skill. If I had magical powers I would remove TC from every racing series. Without a doubt the crappiest invent ever in motorsport (good for road cars on normal road use of course). I wonder when they'll invent automatic steering...

Quote from ayrton senna 87 :

rubbing in racing is ok, but not firing for no reason atall... ive seen a bit of that in the touring cars today.

Stand warned, BTCC drivers: Ayrton thinks you're taking it too far, OK? (This is a bit like being told that Charles Manson thinks you're a bit of a nutter.)

Interesting to see the mix of opinions in this thread. I can't deny that the BTCC is exciting to watch, but just about every race I see somebody pull something (i.e., a move with contact) where I'd be really angry if I was on the receiving end of it. I always wonder why the commentators / interviewers don't call them on their hypocrisy either: a guy like Plato complaining that Neal runs into people too often is pretty rich.

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

Time to post my favourite video of the golden era of the BTCC, back when all the drivers were good...but still hit each other lots

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AFfcNvwTk_U&search=btcc


EDIT: tristan, dare you to try overtaking a car at 140mph on slicks on a wet track :P

You can't use that as an example of (modern) BTCC. I used to love BTCC back then, I always supported the Volvo estates . But nowadays the racing is sub-par, they seem to be trying to get a wider audience into motorsport by filling it with crashes. "Zomg! Explosions! This is awesome!"

Great race at Donington, I didn't think Turkington was going to make the chicane, ruling would have been interesting without the contact from Giovanardi. Rain certainly made it interesting =)

I haven't seen BTCC, but I must say I really enjoyed yesterday's F1 race!

Quote from traxxion :

I haven't seen BTCC, but I must say I really enjoyed yesterday's F1 race!

If you can call F1 racing..

Quote from traxxion :

I haven't seen BTCC, but I must say I really enjoyed yesterday's F1 race!

I must admit yesterday's F1 was slightly better than usual. However, the one thing that annoys me is that generally the guy in front has to have some sort of a problem for a pass to take place. For instance Raikonnen passing Button, as Button had problems towards the end.

If that ammount of overtaking took place at every race I would be a bit happier, and I would prefer it to be at the front of the grid as well, i.e. the championship leaders ACTUALLY racing on track rather than in the pits. TBH ive yet to see a race where the Ferrari and Renault were anywhere near each others pace, so far it has been one or the other dominating for some reason.

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

If you can call F1 racing..

http://video.google.com/videop ... 4&q=gilles+villeneuve

Quote from deggis :

http://video.google.com/videop ... 4&q=gilles+villeneuve

Back in the day it was racing and this is probarly the most fantastic peice of F1 racing I have ever seen. I saw it on Men and Motors a good while ago and i'm sure it said they past each other 8 times in the last lap.

Bring back the old F1 cars!

BTCC is awesome, the last race was excellent! shame Jason Plato was caught out at the start the way the 4 leaders were sliding around the Old Hairpin after the safety car on a damp track was amazing!!

yes some of the overtakes are a bit rough, but the clark of the course looks at all of them to see which were fair, which weren't, there's been alot of penalties given out this year, but from the races at Donnington, i didn't see anything on the TV that deserved a penalty, they were tough, but fair, which is what touring car racing is all about

another thing i love about BTCC, is the drivers are really nice guys, the car control most of them have show that they aren't 2nd rate drivers at all! we even have one of the best touring car racers of all time in the series (Fabrizio Giovanardi), and most of the other front runners are beating him, which goes to show how good the current BTC drivers are! I stood in the pit lane at Croft just over 2 weeks ago talking to Jason Plato after the 2nd race for about 15 minutes. he didn't mind at all, we could have stood there for even longer if my girlfriend didn't pull me away!

I don't like F1 because of the severe lack of overtaking and on-track action, plus the same 2 or 3 people winning all the time!

Quote from ajp71 :

I'd say that's BS the I'd of thought some of the reasons why GP2 cars overtake more are:

1. They're physically smaller, don't forget this, it's why those Legends cars can race 4 wide because they make a Mini look big.

2. A lot less aerodynamic grip, so less loss of grip when in dirty air.

3. They're slower, like older F1 cars the cars are slower, really just like F3000 (FO8) if you think about how much you overtake in the FO8 compared to BF1 it shows (assuming we discount people who can't control them).

4. Shorter races, no pitstops don't play a big part.

5. They're all nutters who are trying so hard to get an F1 drive.

6. No TC means drivers make more mistakes and leave oportunities.

Read Chris Harris's column in Autocar a few weeks ago commenting on the British GP, along the lines of 'sit an alien at Becketts at 11am and tell him this is motorsport and ask him at the end of the day which he thought was the pinacle of the sport [GP2]'

Isn't the biggest factor that GP2 cars use the floor of the car to generate the grip. Which is obviously not as badly affected in the dirty air. T

The FIA made F1 worse when they changed the rules in 05 making it even harder for them to follow. I really wish the FIA would stop trying to come up with silly wings and let them use the floor of the car.

Personally I very rarely watch BTCC these days, far too much contact. As my Dad said if they keep letting drivers off with that sort of contact there's going to be a big accident. Another annoyance is they have the biggest wrecker himself commentating - Tim Harvey. Everytime there's a bit of contact he tries to justify it. He also feels the need to keep commenting on Formula One, the classic was about team orders and how they didn't exist in BTCC. Then Thomson slows down and lets Plato through , he justifies it by saying, "It's not like F1, BTCC is manufacture based." So what's F1 illepall? Ferrari are Ferrari, McLaren are Mercedes, Renault are Renault etc.

Karting events are MSA run as well and believe me you try what half of them BTCC drivers do you'd be in big trouble with the clerk of the course.

I can never understand why people compare BTCC to F1. It's like they are trying to say ITV have no idea what they're doing by showing the most popular live and the other when they can. For me it shows in the size of the grid how little interest there is in BTCC, how many drivers in BTCC go onto do something else ? More drivers go onto better things from the `support` races which are often imo far better than the `big` race itself.

One move like Kimi's at Suzuka 05 is far better than a whole seasons of BTCCs banger racing imo. No contact, sets the move up with no contact through the previous corner and then makes the move with no contact.

Me and my Dad came up with an idea to stop the banger racing in BTCC, they seem to throw in all sorts of silly rules i.e pulling balls from a hat .... Anyway they should have censors that detect impacts and briefly cut the engine for a few seconds.


http://video.google.co.uk/vide ... 9372&q=suzuka+f1+kimi - thats racing

Keiran

Quote from keiran :

More drivers go onto better things from the `support` races which are often imo far better than the `big` race itself.

i went to a WTCC event an Silverstone last year, and i had completely forgotten about the supports, i get there and its the tourists trophy, which features FIA GT cars, it was great to watch, the WTCC was a bit of a let down though, like BTCC but with a slight bit less wrecking!

Quote from keiran :

For me it shows in the size of the grid how little interest there is in BTCC

sorry for proving you wrong here, there were 20 cars running at Croft, 18 at Donnington (1 driver dropped out after Croft due to lack of funding, 1 more joined but 2 couldn't get their cars out on track because of problems over the weekend) now last time i watched F1, wasn't there 20 'cars' (if that's what you can call them) there too?illepall

[EDIT] forgot to mention the amount of people at Croft (I was there so know first hand how many people were there), the place must have been close to its capacity! just goes to show how popular the BTCC really is compared to what you might think :P every bank on the trackside was packed, it was a great atmosphere too![/edit]

touring car racing is very close, and as someone said somewhere back in this thread, you try going 140mph side by side with cars all around you and see how you can cope with it! i bet you couldn't do any better!

BTCC is also one of the only series that allows alternative fuels to power the cars, there's 2 bio-ethonal powered cars on the grid at the moment, they may not be driving by the best drivers (Fiona Leggate and Jason Hughes) but it does show that the BTC is trying to promote the use of alternative fuels.