Teams:

Your input is requested regarding a possible modification at the final corner of Aston Grand Touring.

This proposed circuit modification shall sharpen the entry to the final chicane complex, whilst keeping the track width. It shall reduce corner entry speed, thus allowing more reaction time on the back portion of the corner to incidents at that section. It does not add a passing opportunity, but it should allow GT1 and GT2 interaction to improve. It should not cause loss of slipstreaming and overtaking opportunities on the pit straight. It will prevent any form of cutting the chicane, and reduce possibility of colliding with the default tyre stack at the last apex of the complex. This should reduce the possibility of severe accidents requiring lengthy pitstops and possible Safety Car Interventions.


This thread is explicitly for discussion and comments on the proposed circuit modification.

TEAM MANAGERS will be directly PMed and requested to respond within 48 hours of receipt of the PM with their team's vote. Teams shall vote of their own accord, without coercion and conspiracy with other teams - it shall be their own internal view on the corner.

Teams shall get one vote per class they have a car in. Quoroum shall be 70% of currently entered teams for the vote to count. The simple majority shall rule. Your options are YES or NO.

The Official GT World Series Server has the layout for you to test. Photos are attached. The braking point seems so far to be at around 75 metres.

PLEASE TEST BEFORE YOU SUBMIT YOUR ANSWER.

ONLY TEAMS ENTERED PRIOR TO THIS POST SHALL BE PERMITTED A VOTE.

TEAM MANAGERS SHALL BE PRIVATE MESSAGED THEIR BALLOT SUNDAY EVENING.

It might look good, but is totally undriveable, the car bounces away from the second curb because the car comes in such weird angle while trying to take a good exit. I don't even see whats wrong with the original chicane, it's one of the most challenging corners in the track, and probably one of the only corners that XRR is actually faster than FZR

ew no.

cmon guys, the turn is not that hard

I already see GT1s divebombing in there, thinking it's a good idea. Not to mention bales and tires flying around constantly just after respawn, making it a total mess. Should I talk about the FPS drops in there? The admins went trololol with that layout.

Well since everyone is casting their opinion, I have no real bias to which is used.

Cons to using this:
1) It adds objects and creates a hazzard in that sense
2) dive bombing is easier, though the GT2 cars should have plenty of room to run off into if need be
3) the middle curbing is still unnatural and can cause sliding for 2 wide action

Pros:
1) Corner is safer for racing, less chance of a roll or tyres being sprayed about on exit
2) Better for multiclass even with chance of dive bomb imo
3) Braking point is the same and shouldnt take much set adaptation
4) It helps the FZR/FXR gain a bit of time on the XRR

I prefer the new chicane, since I don't like rallycrossing for 12 hours

Quote from CodeLyoko1 :

I prefer the new chicane, since I don't like rallycrossing for 12 hours

If you're rallycrossing with the old 1 you're doing it wrong.

I already made my opinion pretty well known on the server earlier, but the problems that are there with the original chicane are nothing compared to the ones that were at KY3, and FE4, and the solution(atleast compared to KY3) isn't anywhere near as elegant.

The last corner does already create overtaking opportunities, it's probably the hardest corner on the track to get absolutely right, but the nature of the 2 straights after it mean it sets the move up for a couple of corners later. That corner is 1 of the iconic corners of the track, you're replacing it with a shit 1.

The only reason to change it is for it to be something different, and I'd be for it if it was going to be something that was atleast as good as what was there before. Think of how many races in MoE, IGTC, Super GT there have been there and the fact only now someone has gone "YEAH! This corner needs a chicane" should really tell you everything you need to know.

First of all we should think why it should be out there in the first place. Because people can't handle curbs? Driving offroad? Hitting tires? Cant find a proper apex? Struggle with proper braking points? Well, there is only one thing for it, practise and learn, thats it. The Boothy Chicane was probably designed (as far as i know) to make it safer for the car and driving itself... Curbs that were there could ruin a race in matter of a single lap and it was very dangerous if you would make a mistake at +200kmh for others. You had to do it pretty much perfect every time... Now lets take a look at Aston, again why? Car doesnt get any damage because of the curb, speeds are much lower than the whole SC3 and SC4... If you want another slow corner... Why again? T1, T3, T4, T5 and 2nd last corner really is not enough? All of them are second gear corners so again... Pointless to make another one. Cant find proper apex... On begin of practising on GTWS server, there was quite seenable cone which maked it easier to do, so thats the solution straight away. Hitting tires, well thats an FZR problem mostly because you cant really bounce on the curbs there so thats only reason i can find... Thats not enough to completely change the corner. I found it unnecessary and unreasonable at all, just keep the old one... Nobody complained that much since past 8 years, its a challenging corner which can make or ruin quali, same the race... I will vote for NO, i dont want this chicane and above i explained why.

Quote from IMOL :

Well, there is only one thing for it, practise and learn, thats it.

And it's impossible to learn a new corner? No, and certainly everyone could learn the new one. But is it fair to change the chicane now....?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This being said, I think IMOL has a point in what he is saying. Not only is it 1 WEEK before qualifying begins, but teams have been practicing for a few weeks to get everything right. Not sure if changing corner is the right call. I think the idea can work, but maybe save it for next year. Because most people have sets worked out already. IMOL nailed it in his description. He is a very experienced driver and clearly knows what's best. Though I do not feel the l33t drivers should dominate opinion because they are better than us, it does leave something to be said.

Personally I hate original corner and like the new one a lot, but I am voting no on principle because if you wanted to make this change you had weeks prior to do it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMO: best solution is to put back the apex poles and that way people can have something visual to aim for. Also, leave the braking markers as they are quite helpful.

The chicane feels ok to drive but after thinking about it, it just seems unnecessary. The original corner is quite dangerous itself and so is this one, but people know the original one well and know that you would be insane to try and pass there. This new corner with a harder braking zone creates an illusion that you can, but you just can't. The exit isn't wide enough for 2 cars and it would create a very dangerous situation for both of them as there really is one line to make it through safely.

It was always brought up, just the admin decisions were always "it is too late" or "we don't like layouts". KY3b was stupidly difficult to get them to actually race it. FE4 was easier but the amount of versions that were made was stupidly high as well. (All 3 of those series were a different admin team)

I understand people don't want to lose a spot they have an advantage over others on. Both Isaac and Imol said that today, but it isn't a valid excuse on why the new one is bad. Just like it isn't a valid excuse to complain without even testing it, as Jack and Kristi has shown.

Provide actual constructive criticism, not just random assumption or utter BS that tries to direct things in the way you want it. And please, don't say that corner is iconic, its always been a joke and has repeatedly shown that Eric makes circuits while being intoxicated.

EDIT: Just want to say I don't have any opinion on which way this goes, just want things to stay civil.

Quote from PMD9409 :

I understand people don't want to lose a spot they have an advantage over others on. Both Isaac and Imol said that today, but it isn't a valid excuse on why the new one is bad.

I'd agree with you except for the obvious fact that's not what I said, and everything I wrote was constructive in showing why I prefer the original corner rather than a bodged layout that feels like driving a bad open config. It isn't that it's completely terrible, it's just 1 step forward, 2 steps back. But I don't want to hurt your feelings because you're just mad that someone dares to say anything negative about your layout, which is the only reason I can think you'd twist my words like that. Will see what people think in the polls I guess

Lack of variety and new content is the reason LFS is dying, so we shouldn't even think of reintroducing windy conditions and placing brand new chicanes on the track
The new chicane is not that easy to get right but I find it much more interesting than Boothy KY version which essentialy spoiled the best corner in the game. Not to mention that I drove the standard last turn a million times already and have been gifted a tire on the exit way too many times.

Quote from IsaacPrice :

I'd agree with you except for the obvious fact that's not what I said, and everything I wrote was constructive in showing why I prefer the original corner rather than a bodged layout that feels like driving a bad open config. It isn't that it's completely terrible, it's just 1 step forward, 2 steps back. But I don't want to hurt your feelings because you're just mad that someone dares to say anything negative about your layout, which is the only reason I can think you'd twist my words like that. Will see what people think in the polls I guess

Ouch, sorry that I called you out on something you said and you feel offended by it. It really hurts me you don't like a layout I made for deko as well.

And sorry, I didn't receive the memo where insults and "its bad" is considered constructive feedback. It's sad when Ray can construct a better post. You may be my team mate but the layout was made for deko, not for you or anyone else. If you are not a fan of it or believe it will cause issues, then tell your team manager and have them vote no. It's as simple as that.

Like I said, lets please keep this civil. There is no reason to insult others and put anyone down, as it just makes you look silly and gets nothing done, delaying this process even further.

If the layout was mode for Deko and not for any of the the drivers, then why not use that dictatorist mentality and put it in the race without casting any of the votes? Well, if you don't find any constructivism in Isaac's post, then I suggest reading it a few more times, just to be clear. The last two paragraphs are top notch in terms of "why to keep the old one". People drove there for 24 hours without complaining, at least I didn't hear any of it. I've enjoyed driving it for a day, just because my laptimes were tenths better if I got it perfectly. Now that new one, which still has only a single line to get right isn't gonna make a passing opportunity, cause one will end up in the sand for sure. Also makes GT1s think they are invincible and can get around GT2s there. That's not the case. So what did we achieve by putting in that layout? You turned a quick turn into a slow one with less challenge and opportunity to MAKE a lap. I don't see any of the advantages in using that layout, at all. Why isn't my FPS drop statement valid? That turn itself is the most resource hungry one in the whole game. That is the only turn that caused an FPS drop for me while racing, ever. So putting a layout in there would make chaos, not to mention people who have worse PC than me.

Do you think Ray's posts are better constructed, despite all of the bad statements regards the turn? What makes you think they are well-thought and formed? Reading his first post's Pros made my eyeballs roll around, trying to make anything out of that.

Are you ****ing kidding me?

Removing one of the most challenging corners in lfs...


And it's not even april

This is the hardest and most important part of the track /challenge/
I have an idea We can use OLD AMG break white line. This line created AMG team than to ensure a good entry speed whilst also keeping the car stable as you go for the perfect line through the chicane.

my serious POV on the last chicane. I do like the old one. It's fast and exciting. Also it made me crash every fast hotlap I tried on the public server, simply because those tires spread on track, and that is unavoidable and time killing at 200 kph. Also I prefer the new one, simply because it's something new.

also on the "to heavy for my pc" thing. Put your lfs on lower settings. If you still have a problem, then it's time to sell your atari.

I can't even understand someone who's in favor of this decision, because just as pointed out before why change a running system or fix something if it isn't broken (lets leave out the curb thing) ? I will fully have to root with Isaac here, when he says that it always was one of the hardest parts course / the hardest to get right.
Somehow, you always tend to lose just that tiny bit of time that makes the car following able to catch the draft. Plus, concerning the dirty air problem mentioned on the server yesterday, I've never seen anybody following bumper to bumper through there while not going full retard. Even if so, past events have proven that this corner wasn't creating massive problems that need to be fixed. Oh and please, dont come up with that boothy chicane argument now - things are a real different matter over there. Things could make or brake there in one lap, destroying a whole teams effort while also being inviting for a dive due to the long straight before and the natural ability to draft while also causing major suspension damage over time.

Tomek and myself tried to fiddle around a little bit last night with the latest configuration to give it a little stress test. While the nature of the now MIGHT provide the opportunity to take a dive down the inside, what follows makes it IMPOSSIBLE to actually make the move stick. The tight nature, the next corner in the other direction. Also, to get the right line through the new chicane, you got to turn in in the first left hander further than you might think, elseway it will compromize your exit. This, plus the right hand curb make it nearly impossible for two cars to get through there without atleast banging doorhandles.

Even IF two cars make it through there safely, you cannot pull out enough of a gap without squeezing the other car to run away with it. The other car has the chance to immediately draft back in front of you, which makes trying to get a move done there worthless.

In another scenario, if you try to follow a car through there somewhat close like you did before to catch the other one's draft, you are absoluted ****ed. Due to the tight nature of the chicane, the car in front will ALWAYS be able to step on it earlier and while this may be no big concern in restricted cars, the immediate and hard power delivery in gt1's make it impossible to catch the draft without the man upfront screwing around the exit - et voila, another passing opportunity gone. And trust me with that, we've tried it. It is the same problem F1 circuits have nowdays, slow corners, followed by long straights over and over. They have flappy wings to compensate, thank got we have not.

These are the reasons many, or lets say most of the better drivers think it would be a bad move to install this chicane, only with the arguments listed up this time actually supporting the opinion. And to be fair, anybody else who says different will surely know nothing about racing, especially at the front. That's why in my opinion only those who expierienced and fast enough should make those decisions in close contact with the admins. The arguments brought up by some here and on the server make me think the only races they have done on wheels were still in elementary with their best buddies on bicycles.

Bear in mind, I will check the server for actual testing, and reserve the right to discard teams who did not test this layout either last night or in the voting window.

Quote from lundqvist :

I can't even understand someone who's in favor of this decision, because just as pointed out before why change a running system or fix something if it isn't broken (lets leave out the curb thing) ? I will fully have to root with Isaac here, when he says that it always was one of the hardest parts course / the hardest to get right.
Somehow, you always tend to lose just that tiny bit of time that makes the car following able to catch the draft. Plus, concerning the dirty air problem mentioned on the server yesterday, I've never seen anybody following bumper to bumper through there while not going full retard. Even if so, past events have proven that this corner wasn't creating massive problems that need to be fixed. Oh and please, dont come up with that boothy chicane argument now - things are a real different matter over there. Things could make or brake there in one lap, destroying a whole teams effort while also being inviting for a dive due to the long straight before and the natural ability to draft while also causing major suspension damage over time.

Tomek and myself tried to fiddle around a little bit last night with the latest configuration to give it a little stress test. While the nature of the now MIGHT provide the opportunity to take a dive down the inside, what follows makes it IMPOSSIBLE to actually make the move stick. The tight nature, the next corner in the other direction. Also, to get the right line through the new chicane, you got to turn in in the first left hander further than you might think, elseway it will compromize your exit. This, plus the right hand curb make it nearly impossible for two cars to get through there without atleast banging doorhandles.

Even IF two cars make it through there safely, you cannot pull out enough of a gap without squeezing the other car to run away with it. The other car has the chance to immediately draft back in front of you, which makes trying to get a move done there worthless.

In another scenario, if you try to follow a car through there somewhat close like you did before to catch the other one's draft, you are absoluted ****ed. Due to the tight nature of the chicane, the car in front will ALWAYS be able to step on it earlier and while this may be no big concern in restricted cars, the immediate and hard power delivery in gt1's make it impossible to catch the draft without the man upfront screwing around the exit - et voila, another passing opportunity gone. And trust me with that, we've tried it. It is the same problem F1 circuits have nowdays, slow corners, followed by long straights over and over. They have flappy wings to compensate, thank got we have not.

These are the reasons many, or lets say most of the better drivers think it would be a bad move to install this chicane, only with the arguments listed up this time actually supporting the opinion. And to be fair, anybody else who says different will surely know nothing about racing, especially at the front. That's why in my opinion only those who expierienced and fast enough should make those decisions in close contact with the admins. The arguments brought up by some here and on the server make me think the only races they have done on wheels were still in elementary with their best buddies on bicycles.

Pretty much sums up my initial thoughts, especially the 'losing a passing opportunity ' one.

Quote from lundqvist :

In another scenario, if you try to follow a car through there somewhat close like you did before to catch the other one's draft, you are absoluted ****ed. Due to the tight nature of the chicane, the car in front will ALWAYS be able to step on it earlier and while this may be no big concern in restricted cars, the immediate and hard power delivery in gt1's make it impossible to catch the draft without the man upfront screwing around the exit - et voila, another passing opportunity gone. And trust me with that, we've tried it. It is the same problem F1 circuits have nowdays, slow corners, followed by long straights over and over. They have flappy wings to compensate, thank got we have not.

still better than the one in the rear plowing 200 kph into the tire barrier or the one behind that plowing into loose tires being launched on the track

Quote from CodeLyoko1 :

my serious POV on the last chicane. I do like the old one. It's fast and exciting. Also it made me crash every fast hotlap I tried on the public server, simply because those tires spread on track, and that is unavoidable and time killing at 200 kph. Also I prefer the new one, simply because it's something new.

also on the "to heavy for my pc" thing. Put your lfs on lower settings. If you still have a problem, then it's time to sell your atari.

There has been 4 or 5 24hrs races at As5, 6h races in IGTC ans GT1WS...I haven't seen so many crash there. That's a hard corner and you have to do it right that's it.


Anyway I quite like this version.This corner is still technical but another way.you still have to get a good like as now traction on exit is critical. So instead of being an high speed awesome chicane, that is a slow corner which is a safe overtaking opportunity where you struggle for traction on exit. Yesterday we eventually took it 3 wide !

Personally i like both version, the normal one is a bit more dangerous, this one can creates lag tho but in the end both are challenging

Opinions are like bum holes. Everyone has them and most of them stink. Never said mine was correct, Kristi.

I did not recieved PM but from the name of Fast And Crazy team we say - No