Quote from kars19 :

Just out if interest checked how popular are hotlaping in AC vs LFS with similar GT cars, so many years has gone by and the LFS has so little HL's compared to what AC has got in ~1,5 months.

Yeah AC is worldwide popular. But, but, LFS is more realistic phyisix then real life.

Quote from tristancliffe :

And it doesn't have traction control, yaw control, ABS, active differentials, active aero... So it passes the test.

It has advanced engine management and shifter paddles. It's total easy mode.

I only race cars with a manual timing advance on the steering wheel and direct drive!

Transmissions, differentials, fuel injection, aerodynamics, downforce, self-adjusting brakes... all easy mode driver aids for pussies. Real men don't even need a temperature gauge, they feel the heat of the motor through their feet and how it smells!

Actually, **** cars! they are just runner-aids! Real men sprint through the grand prix!

Ah, Reductio ad Absurdum.

Whilst I suppose you could call engine management a driver aid, you know perfectly what I meant. But I guess being stupid is the new cool. You're the coolest!

You sound like a bloody karter Tristan.

pure driving this pure driving that. ZZZzzzzz....

TC on the BF1 isn't a driver aid, it's a setup option.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Ah, Reductio ad Absurdum.

Whilst I suppose you could call engine management a driver aid, you know perfectly what I meant. But I guess being stupid is the new cool. You're the coolest!

Insults usually come from a frustration about one's own opinions. It's that cognitive dissonance I talked about. Its not really your fault, you just have no idea how to reconcile your good opinions of things that make driving easier (I would presume you enjoy disk brakes and fuel injection) with your bad opinions (ABS and stability control). Its human nature.

I personally enjoy anything that makes me faster or the car more reliable.

I personally prefer things that make me faster, not that artificially enhance my apparent skill set. I'd much rather brake, corner and accelerate due to my ability than because the car decided it could do better. For general road use, for pretty much everyone, there are obvious safety benefits, but for track use or in simulators then (for me) I'd much rather drive it myself than have a computer decide I've done something wrong and change my input. I derive no pleasure from computer assistance.

And no, I don't consider injection to be a driver aid. It's part of the engine, much like a piston or a cambelt. The driver should control the torque output manually for optimal enjoyment.

Definitely no frustrations about my own opinions, I can assure you of that

Quote from tristancliffe :

I personally prefer things that make me faster, not that artificially enhance my apparent skill set. I'd much rather brake, corner and accelerate due to my ability than because the car decided it could do better. For general road use, for pretty much everyone, there are obvious safety benefits, but for track use or in simulators then (for me) I'd much rather drive it myself than have a computer decide I've done something wrong and change my input. I derive no pleasure from computer assistance.

And no, I don't consider injection to be a driver aid. It's part of the engine, much like a piston or a cambelt. The driver should control the torque output manually for optimal enjoyment.

Definitely no frustrations about my own opinions, I can assure you of that

So instead of actual measurable technical facts it becomes a question of righteousness and fairness? You say you prefer things that make you faster but at the same time some things are unfair or wrong like traction control, electronic diffs and all other electronic gizmos despite the fact they make you faster? To me it sounds fast or slow actually makes no difference to you. To me seems to be all about some righteous way of how a car should be driven. "Amazing lap time but you drove it wrong".

Personally I enjoy driving cars in sims that have no aero, have no slicks and have no electronics but I would never claim that is the way to drive for optimal enjoyment. My real life track time is basically non-existent but generally I'd prefer to drive a car that helps me keep it on the road instead of having one that will try to kill me once I do a little wrong thing.

Quote from Hyperactive :

So instead of actual measurable technical facts it becomes a question of righteousness and fairness? You say you prefer things that make you faster but at the same time some things are unfair or wrong like traction control, electronic diffs and all other electronic gizmos despite the fact they make you faster? To me it sounds fast or slow actually makes no difference to you. To me seems to be all about some righteous way of how a car should be driven. "Amazing lap time but you drove it wrong".

Yup, it really is a classic case of cognitive dissonance. He can't comprehend how easy the other computerized systems make his life and yet he can't dispose of his distaste for computerized traction management.

If this was the 1930s he would be one of those dudes still rocking an open differential and denouncing the cam and pawl. All while losing to said LSD...

This isn't about winning or losing. In a competition you clearly want whatever is faster over a race or lap. I'm talking about fun. And I prefer stuff that makes ME faster - driver coaching, learning how to do setups, how to come off the brakes optimally. Real skills. I get way more pleasure from knowing that I rotated the car perfectly than because an active diff corrected 122 minor driver mistakes in one corner.

I get no reward from knowing that a computer is making me look like a good driver. I l'd have (and indeed do have) more self respect if I was making a few mistakes, being a bit slower, but doing it myself.

As there is very little adrenaline, and even less risk in sim racing, I don't get any enjoyment from driving a car that does a lot of it for me. Yes, you might think differently. As long as you recognise that I don't agree and why then I'm happy. You may well prefer a Nissan skyline because you have no throttle feel or don't like choosing your apex point entirely yourself.

Downforce isn't a driving aid really. It's a laptime aid, but not a driver aid. Often it means you just have a bigger, more expensive accident than a non-aero car.

Edit - and as I work with cars with/without aero, with/without any electronics, with/without throttle cables, with/without open differentials, with/without disk brakes, with/without threaded tyres, I have a pretty good idea of what improves a car, for me, in terms of fun or laptime or convenience or safety. I'll drive to work in a car with ABS, do a bit of an engine rebuild on an Aurelia, then do a setdown on a single seater to a decent working tolerance after unloading it from our truck.

^Gentleman driver^

Quote from tristancliffe :

You may well prefer a Nissan skyline because you have no throttle feel or don't like choosing your apex point entirely yourself.

And that right there, is an uninformed prejudistic opinion based on no experience with those cars. Throttle feel on Skylines is just like it is in any other fuel injected car, as it's not a DbW system. Same for "choosing your apex point" as the nature of the 4WD system is to feel natural and let you be in the control of the car at all times, it only adds traction IF that doesn't result in understeer at any point.

I can fully comprehend that not everyone likes computerized cars, I don't really like the new ones that take it too far either as they've become too big and too heavy. Small and nimble R32 from the non-TC, non-ELSD, non-stability control era is the perfect mix of basic electronic technology coming together with high performance mechanical engineering for me. That doesn't mean I dismiss people who do enjoy driving something fully computerized like an R35, and as a car fanatic geek, I can easily appreciate the technology and engineering gone in to a car like that.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I get way more pleasure from knowing that I rotated the car perfectly than because an active diff corrected 122 minor driver mistakes in one corner.

Then surely the most biggest feeling of pleasure is achieved when you have 5 ton truck with wooden tires going upside down into copse at 500mph and you manage to nail the corner perfectly while going through five 20 point checklists, while solving differential equations on paper for the brakes to lift the inside tires 1mm off the ground because the 7 solid rear diffs won't let the thing turn otherwise and then steer the vehicle through the corner at optimal slip angle while doing a barrel roll just because you can. Open diffs are for pussies.

Listen guys, chill. Give Tristan a break.


I can see some of the logic he's trying to use, however using them in the wrong manner.

Sure ABS and TC etc etc etc. Is not a die hard racing drivers wet dream.
But saying pretty much everyone with half a brain cell can drive ABS and TC is bull.

Sure any person with a drivers license can drive 'any' race car with the correct instructions, but given the aid of TC and ABS, it's somewhat easier/less expensive to catch how to drive 'faster'.

As I'm driving a Ferrari that has all of the above (TC, ABS) I can assure you, this is simple just an aid, you don't jump into that car and be on pace, because sure, it's easier to control those horsepower with TC, but there are 20 other monkeys on the track with the same benefits, so saying it's too easy is just idiotic and quite dangerous in your position, because when have you ever been in a competitive race series?

the Skyline point, well.... Just give up Tristan, it's quite lame to use the 'choose an apex', you should know damn well that you just don't choose an apex and go, It might be easier with 4WD, but there is only one line which is the fastest one.

Quote from Dennis93 :

I can see some of the logic he's trying to use, however using them in the wrong manner.

Sure ABS and TC etc etc etc. Is not a die hard racing drivers wet dream.
But saying pretty much everyone with half a brain cell can drive ABS and TC is bull.

exactly this

Quote from Dennis93 :

As I'm driving a Ferrari that has all of the above (TC, ABS) I can assure you, this is simple just an aid, you don't jump into that car and be on pace, because sure, it's easier to control those horsepower with TC, but there are 20 other monkeys on the track with the same benefits, so saying it's too easy is just idiotic and quite dangerous in your position, because when have you ever been in a competitive race series?

I always found TC to be in the way of laptimes. Is this the case in ur Ferrari sir? Did you try disabling it? Does it provide more feel if disabled? Am I driving the car with throttle too much for TC system to handle it? Is it working progressively enabled or plain stalls in the way of power boost? Yea hard to make it a simple question.

Quote from N I K I :

I always found TC to be in the way of laptimes. Is this the case in ur Ferrari sir?

Well, The challenge car i drove in Barcalona it was difference between 1,5 seconds on new tires, but this is a road TC and yes that was very much in the way of making faster laptimes.
However on the GTC the TC is quite different, But still faster without on new tires. on older tires/stint driving it's faster on average to have it on 2(lowest setting)

Quote from N I K I :

Did you try disabling it? Does it provide more feel if disabled?

Yes I have, it does of course create more feel, but it also wears rear tires faster.

Quote from N I K I :

Am I driving the car with throttle too much for TC system to handle it? Is it working progressively enabled or plain stalls in the way of power boost? Yea hard to make it a simple question.

Again, in the Challenge car it does everything for you, if you go flat out, out of a corner you can feel the power bugging down and thus you have no power, in this case no TC is faster.

In the GTC, you sort of need it to be faster. on my fastest lap on Paul Richard it was shown to be active 6% of the time I was on the power, so it's not that significant of a difference if it's on or off. Of course if you run it in the highest setting (9 i think) It's just cutting too much throttle, and this is only for Spa rain.

Hope this was helpful.

Dennis summed it up right, so this should be [/arguement] at this point. Having nearly the same conditions on every race car is what makes racing, and not disabling some aids like TC or ABS. They won't drive your car without making the right inputs, you can still build up seconds of differences over a lap even if you have those aids turned on. Adjusting your driving to suit them is what makes you a racer, and not plain disabling.

I think you guys are all right in one way or another, it's totally subjective anyway. But my thoughts on the matter are probably a little closer to Tristan's. Although saying that, I do really appreciate the ability and potential of a car like the Nissan GTR and would love to own one because of that, but not for the "driver enjoyment". When it comes to that all I think about is "Would I want that on a Caterham 7?", no flappy paddles, no ESP, EBD, TCS or ABS no matter how much it might improve the laptime, thanks.

Lol, whatever, no one ever said it improved lap times, only drivability.

Quote from Dennis93 :

Lol, whatever, no one ever said it improved lap times, only drivability.

But it can and for me that's irrelevant, is all I'm saying. Faster isn't better necessarily. I don't knock anyone for using those systems or liking cars equipped with them, but I wouldn't choose to add them.

I don't think it is a coincidence that historic racing is one of the only growth areas of motorsport.

Yes Sinbad is right, everyone is 'right' but the one issue with all these driving aids is they inevitably lead to one final form - AI drivers.

Damn http://www.assettocorsa.net/fo ... /audi-sport-quattro.4937/







With proper awd physics this thing will be good, requires completely different driving style then evo/sti

Finally something on the FB
Least expected car lol