Hi All,

Obviously I have been about for a while but just of late, I have wondered why I am a lot slower than the front runners, and I keep asking myself, where the hell am I loosing 2 secs per lap. As it doesn't seem to matter what track, what car, I am always 2 seconds slower....I then ask for a setup for help, as I have changed hardware (wheel in that case).

Now I usually find the usual crowd ( Nilex, B2 Storm, Stiggy, Camelx ) and I know I am in for hiding, but I hang in there, and when I ask for a setup, Nilex or Storm provide me with one...but I notice that they are mouse users.....

So I give it a bash, as you do, but you soon realise, a mouse setup is really no good for a wheel user.

We was racing tonight, and sitting still on the flat black top, my wheel was moving to the left on its own, but yet they was putting in 50's on FE Club Rev.

Considering LFS is classed as a pure sim, is the mouse driver really that much faster than a wheel driver?

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't expecting to break WR's or such, but I was just amazed at the difference of setups. I have the WR setups, and my wheel doesn't move an inch.

So is LFS really a true sim now, or are the physics and tyre modeling being exploited...finally??

Like I said, this is an honest discussion, not a hit at anybody or anything, just asking what other LFS drivers have found

Cheers for reading

Fordie

Quote from Fordman :

So I give it a bash, as you do, but you soon realise, a mouse setup is really no good for a wheel user.

I don't think that's really correct because I use so called wheel setups with mouse and I see no problem with them, except maybe for small details like brake pressure etc.

I have also given my setups to wheel users and I don't recall any big issues with them, except for maybe these small details.

Nilex has 191.6 thousand racing miles, you have 40 thousand. I would imagine this would have more of a difference to your respective pace than the difference between the controllers you use with the same setup.

Using mouse doesn't make you as quick as Nilex and Storm, trust me...

As for the setups, I think it is probably more to do with differences in driving style rather than controller.

For mouse it is easy to drive, you can turn wheel really fast, that gives you a lot of advantage.
Same goes for most of wheel users if you put steering wheel degrees low. Basically it is wrong but you only cheat yourself if you do so

Hey Fordman,

My opinion is.., without trying to bash the mouse drivers, that driving with mouse has indeed like Jati says (who tries it both) have some advantages over the wheel. Although I expect a mouse driver like Nilex to be fast with a wheel as well cause he just understands racing.. and look at the set he makes or adjusts.. they are often awesome (for me), which means he understands what he does.

I have a crappy old wheel which is really falling apart now ( DFP ) but it took me a lot of practicing to become fast. The last tenths will require obviously much more precision and 'feel' then the last seconds to a fast time. What maybe helps you is to start building your own set.. and don't make ANY adjustment before you know all the effects it has so you can judge the possible benefit for your driving. It helps understand the situations on track. I have for most roadcar combinations made own sets now, do this and you'll probably respect LFS' physics even better as you see how the effects are detailed in-game.. I still find it amazing.

I drive mostly with 540 degrees.. but sometimes lower depends on car and track combi. but never below 360. I set the settings so that the first part of steering which is normally used with racing ( most ppl turn too much) is 1 to 1 with the car. But it turns quicker ingame when e.g. I got a tankslapper and would spin.. this is good for example when want the rear tires to be heaten up before a quick lap.
On KY for example.. I am faster with 540 degrees than anything lower. You just cant be that precise with lower degrees but your responses will be a little slower which simply means you need to feel and know the limits better so you dont allow massive oversteer to happen for ex.

Firstly, thank you for nobody bashing me, for just asking a question LOL. I am not bashing the mouse drivers, but most of you have answered the question, re setups for mouse and setups for wheel's.


I did forget to mention, that when nilex gave me his setup, I was actually faster and got a new PB LOL but I was fighting the wheel, as in constantly correcting the whole time, where my setup, I don't have to fight it.


If I continue using that, I would end up with biceps like Van Damn HE HE


Fordie

i use a £30 wheel and sometimes am able to keep up with nilex on different tracks

i think its a personal thing that they are faster they are probably faster than you. its mostly up to the driver.

i think a mouse driver can be faster if he/she gets used to the wheel. because with mouse they have only full throttle or no throttle, full brake or no brake. also they have to keep an eye on the virtual wheel because there is no other thing than virtual wheel which indicates the direction of the car. and no feedback, so they are driving more with their eyes, rather than feeling.

and a wheel user will be slower even if he/she gets used to mouse. the only place where mouse is advantaged is probably races, where you can change directions faster than a wheel user. enabling you to climb up easier. but then especially in south city you will waste/heat tyres quickly with unstable accelerating and braking.

Obviously forces view.

Quote from ImudilaSkyline :

I don't think that's really correct because I use so called wheel setups with mouse and I see no problem with them, except maybe for small details like brake pressure etc.

I have also given my setups to wheel users and I don't recall any big issues with them, except for maybe these small details.

can confirm. there is no difference between them aside from brake pressure and brake bias.

IMO due to its lack of any precise input mouse makes it pretty hard to it's pretty hard to be either a) committed to the ideal line early in the corner, or b) make slight steering adjustments mid-corner, while in the meantime c) have clean breaking and acceleration zones, which can be quite important for corner entry and exit, especially with some of the heavier and/or more powerful cars. Sometimes it amazes me how some mouse drivers manage to post near-WR times despite those disadvantages, so fair play to them. Of course, with mouse you have the advantage of super-fast steering inputs, but since they're not so precise, I think they're mostly helpful when you're really about to lose it(especially useful in close racing situations).

As for personal background: Started on mouse for a while, then switched to mouse+pedals, got faster almost straight out of the box. Switched from mouse+pedals to wheel after a while, once again, got faster almost out of the box. So I'd say switching to wheel as been quite useful to me in terms of laptimes, and I'm not even talking about driving experience!

Quote from CodeLyoko1 :

can confirm. there is no difference between them aside from brake pressure and brake bias.

Good point... Usually less brake pressure overall, and more brakes on the front as you need a solid front-end(in order to have a somewhat predictable line on corner entry, preferably without locking the front tyres). Hard to drive the car on the rear tyres like wheel users would do. This can be quite a disadvantage with the RWD GTRs in particular.

Not that I'm very knowledgeable on the matter, maybe Nilex can shed more light on the details.

can anyone help me by uploading the xrg defaulTM-Kopi skin becuase it seems to be missing from my folder please help<i am also new to the game

You'll be hard-pressed to find a WR set with a mouse. There is one at BL1/R, and it's not even a demo combo. The rest use a wheel at that track.

I feel it's a bit misleading to say a type of control scheme is better because it allows you to flick the steering quicker. You lose an awful lot of precision in doing so. You should only really need to flick the steering if you screw up. If you can be precise enough to not need to flick the steering, chances are you'll be faster, all else being equal.

Try this:
https://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=46131

It's definitely a wheel set and although the time is now 1.22 seconds (~101%) off the WR on a 2 minute lap, it's still pretty quick. Also, the set was developed for racing, meaning it had to be able to wear down a set of tires and at least half a tank of fuel without any major issues, so it's probably more stable than your typical WR set.

Quote from kittenrape :

can anyone help me by uploading the xrg defaulTM-Kopi skin becuase it seems to be missing from my folder please help<i am also new to the game

If you see the skin when driving on- or offline, the file must be on your computer.
Find the folder LFS is installed in and then look in the "data" folder and then in the "skins" map.
The file should be there.
Copy/paste it to your desktop and then upload it to LFS World.

Quote from Yisc[NL] :

If you see the skin when driving on- or offline, the file must be on your computer.
Find the folder LFS is installed in and then look in the "data" folder and then in the "skins" map.
The file should be there.
Copy/paste it to your desktop and then unload it to LFS World.

how to unload it into the game ?

You need to copy the skin into LFS/Data/Skin Folder and upload it on lfsworld.net into the Skin Application.

Quote from S.E.T.H :

because with mouse they have only full throttle or no throttle, full brake or no brake.

That's not the case for me atleast, because I use a lower button control rate so that smoothens up the input by some distance and enables brake and throttle more smoothly which makes driving somewhat easier.

Quote from S.E.T.H :

and a wheel user will be slower even if he/she gets used to mouse.

Also I have to disagree, because I was using a wheel before mouse, but now when using mouse I am quite a bit faster than I was with a wheel. That might be down to experience though because I wasn't too experienced when driving with a wheel

I do remember though that when I was a wheel driver then I would try mouse sometimes and would think how anybody could even keep a car on a straight line with it

Quote from GreyBull [CHA] :

IMO due to its lack of any precise input mouse makes it pretty hard to it's pretty hard to be either a) committed to the ideal line early in the corner, or b) make slight steering adjustments mid-corner, while in the meantime c) have clean breaking and acceleration zones, which can be quite important for corner entry and exit, especially with some of the heavier and/or more powerful cars. Sometimes it amazes me how some mouse drivers manage to post near-WR times despite those disadvantages, so fair play to them.

Quote from GreyBull [CHA] :

Hard to drive the car on the rear tyres like wheel users would do. This can be quite a disadvantage with the RWD GTRs in particular

All of this input precision and ability to drive the car to the limit comes down to experience and practice IMO (as with a wheel ofcourse), because I don't think that you could drive fast instantly when you start driving with a mouse. For me, having a wheel probably helped it a bit but I remember how useless I was when I first started driving with a mouse about a year ago or so, and then suddenly after some months of practice I was beating my old PBs with ease. As S.E.T.H mentioned, mouse drivers have to feel different things to drive fast and it takes time to adapt to that. I don't quite remember when I was competent enough to drive stints consitently, but still it takes a lot of practice and time.

What I'm trying to say here is that mouse drivers are often underrated and bashed because people think that it is very easy for them to do what they do, but I definetely don't think so.

Quote from ImudilaSkyline :

That's not the case for me atleast, because I use a lower button control rate so that smoothens up the input by some distance and enables brake and throttle more smoothly which makes driving somewhat easier.


All of this input precision and ability to drive the car to the limit comes down to experience and practice IMO (as with a wheel ofcourse), because I don't think that you could drive fast instantly when you start driving with a mouse. For me, having a wheel probably helped it a bit but I remember how useless I was when I first started driving with a mouse about a year ago or so, and then suddenly after some months of practice I was beating my old PBs with ease. As S.E.T.H mentioned, mouse drivers have to feel different things to drive fast and it takes time to adapt to that. I don't quite remember when I was competent enough to drive stints consitently, but still it takes a lot of practice and time.

What I'm trying to say here is that mouse drivers are often underrated and bashed because people think that it is very easy for them to do what they do, but I definetely don't think so.

That's exaclty the same experiense with mouse for me, also i use the control button rate so i have a smoother imput while puting the power to the ground and helps a loot to not lock the brakes under hardbraking zones

Quote from Be2K :

You need to copy the skin into LFS/Data/Skin Folder and upload it on lfsworld.net into the Skin Application.

i am a demo driver i cant upload anyskins so please just send me the original xrg defaulTM-kopi file from your skins folder please i really need your help it seems like i downloaded a moded lfs and it dosnt have the original files

Then download fresh install from lfs.net <- which should be the only source for downloading!

you guys talk like you know nothing about button control rate. it does not help you with not locking the tyres or accelerating smoothly. in accelerating, it feels like turbo lag because after the initial press on the button, it just gives you the full power. if it worked like you thought, you could be going at a certain speed while holding the throttle button down. but you cant.

lets say you have to use 60% brake at some point, button control rate wont really be of any help. it works for the first second you press the button. it'll just hit 100% moments after the initial press. so you will lock the wheels and your only chance is releasing the button and pressing it again which will cost you time.

Quote from S.E.T.H :

you guys talk like you know nothing about button control rate. it does not help you with not locking the tyres or accelerating smoothly. in accelerating, it feels like turbo lag because after the initial press on the button, it just gives you the full power. if it worked like you thought, you could be going at a certain speed while holding the throttle button down. but you cant.

lets say you have to use 60% brake at some point, button control rate wont really be of any help. it works for the first second you press the button. it'll just hit 100% moments after the initial press. so you will lock the wheels and your only chance is releasing the button and pressing it again which will cost you time.

thats just you not being good with mouse I see

Quote from S.E.T.H :

you guys talk like you know nothing about button control rate. it does not help you with not locking the tyres or accelerating smoothly. in accelerating, it feels like turbo lag because after the initial press on the button, it just gives you the full power. if it worked like you thought, you could be going at a certain speed while holding the throttle button down. but you cant.

lets say you have to use 60% brake at some point, button control rate wont really be of any help. it works for the first second you press the button. it'll just hit 100% moments after the initial press. so you will lock the wheels and your only chance is releasing the button and pressing it again which will cost you time.

Tapping the buttons helps and it won't cost you much time if you have your button control rate just right and you can control your taps.

Some background: Before I bought my G27 I had 1:12.42 hotlap PB at Blackwood FBM. After switching to wheel I was barely doing 1:13.40 but with time I started to get 1:12.80 and could get more but I get bored from this combo very soon.

Another combo I had some decent experience is SO4 BF1. My new PB is done with wheel and I can't do any close to it with mouse.

I had lots of experience with mouse and then switched to wheel because I was 100% sure it will make me a better racer. And it did. Because you can't drive in a single file on mouse as easy and stable as on wheel. You will either burn your tires or lose the field and give up positions a lot on most of the combos - because you can't brake and accelerate smoothly.

Ofcourse you can try and even succeed but then looking replays and seeing how easy it was for wheel racers, you will frustrate and start saving money for the wheel

I am talking about powerful formula cars like BF1 and FOX (FO8 is mostly undrivable with mouse already). Wheel is better here in races IMO. The only advantage is that you can recover from spins better due to ease of lock-to-lock steering moves, but hell, you got hot tyres anyway...

Hotlapping is a bit different from that and mouse can get very fast because you can recoup early braking with a bit earlier and drifty accelerating while moving your mouse left and right like crazy and hoping tyres will last for the final turn