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Formula 3 at Bentwaters Park
(61 posts, started )
Quote from kidzer :Nice

I didn't know you were part ot Ten-Tenths (im kidzer there aswell )

I enjoy going to sprints/hillcimbs, I only spectate at the mo, but theres a FFord in the garage minus an Engine, hopefully once it gets a powerplant me and dad will do a few events in it hopefully

Shame about the lack of track time at them though, I guess it's an advantage karting (just 'testing' - not racing ) - you can just go up whenever you fancy, and the only limit on the laps you can do is how much fuel/oil you take with you

Or how long the engine lasts

Sounds great Tristan My Dad was looking at a Formula Renault chassis for putting together a car for sprints & hill climbs but it went for too much. My Dad wants to get back into hill climbing and sprinting next year. The plan is we will both enter Still need to track down everything though we plan to use a motorbike engine

Off topic Kidzer,
You going to go to that non MSA event at Boyndie next month ?
Quote from tristancliffe :international and/or A licences cost more and can be multiple day tests

No other licenses require signitures on your license then you pay to upgrade them. I think £200 for an ARDS course is a little optimistic, have you factored in the cost of the information pack (I think you have to buy it first)?

Quote :
Erm, yeah most things are obtainable actually (apparently). The hardest bit would be tub/chassis repairs, in which case the cost of doing a good repair to the carbon fiber might be a tad high. But you pays your money and you takes your chance as they say.

Damage isn't a major concern, even in circuit racing you shouldn't do much more than damaging your front wing and suspension. Carbon tub repairs are a major problem and also fatique, remember that 1999 Ferrari F1 car that split in two with the drivers legs sticking out the front on a demo run at Laguna Seca a couple of years ago?

What will get you though is the problem of getting bits, big bits that often go wrong like suspension components are normally fairly easy to get. Wings (although you're unlikely to go through them at the same rate in speed events) can normally be straightened out if not they can be professionally fabricated fairly easilly, if you haven't got a current car then don't bother looking to buy them just get them made. Engines are unlikely to give you a headache, depending on what you've got and the state of tune it may well be tempormental but shouldn't be hard to fix and find parts for. The thing that is likely to get you are the silly little things that shouldn't go wrong so don't have loads of spares made in the first place but where the design only lasted for a season or so. We've had problems with fixing the clutch, an integral part of the gearbox and diff because the car's ended up with a 1990 Formula Renault design which is incredibly hard to find bits for.
The effect of fatigue on carbon fiber is, quite frankly, a minefield. The majority of engineers claim that CF is not affected by fatigue (or rather the effect is negligable up to about 30 years old), whilst a small minority believe it is. Who knows.

What I do know is that that Ferrari accident was not one of fatigue - that was a tub that had been crashed in F1, and repaired by bonding on a new front section. The bond failed, not the carbon fiber, and it was this that led to the accident. As our tub has not been repaired like this, and has not been exposed to excessive UV light which can damage parts of the composite, we are fairly certain that the car falling to bits around us is not a big issue.

But who REALLY knows. Gulp

It's a Toms Toyota engine, with a 5 speed Hewland. The internals, including the clutch are, I believe, standard items, the only difference is the gearbox casing is a Toms specific part on which the suspension is mounted. AS the engine is fairly under stressed (2.0 litres, ~165hp, albeit with the F3 restrictor) it should last quite well as long as we keep the revs up enough to avoid detonation. It runs fine on Optimax without TetraEthyl lead additive, and so far we've not heard any hints of knocking.

The waiting might be frustrating, but we've got a car to rebuild in that time (as well as fitting real life chores in, like cutting trees down, home improvements, car maintenance, work, gardening, bonfires, other car events etc), so I don't think I'll get too upset. If I do I'll just go karting or do a trackday in something fun.
Quote from keiran :
Off topic Kidzer,
You going to go to that non MSA event at Boyndie next month ?

'fraid not, I wanted to do all 4 of them, but dad's said no..which is a shame

I might still turn up to watch though

I'm not sure how competitive i'd be, i've only done about 100 laps in total round Boyndie and my bests is a 39.3, but i've never driven a kart with new tyres so I'm sure that would take the time down by 0.5/1s a lap!
tristan, i believe i speak for every one in this forum, when i utter the following words.


ZOMG D00D YUO == TEH PWN!!!!!!!

oh, and mad props to your father.
I hardly think so - I'm sure many people here couldn't care less about what I do in my spare time, but as a few people do, and as a few people here have more experience with this sort of stuff, I thought I'd post it for the entertainment value as well as to get advice from people...
Quote from tristancliffe :I hardly think so - I'm sure many people here couldn't care less about what I do in my spare time, but as a few people do, and as a few people here have more experience with this sort of stuff, I thought I'd post it for the entertainment value as well as to get advice from people...

It's always nice to hear about things - The Motor Show (which i went to and spoke about), this, what cars people drive... It's all about getting to know things about people...
Quote from kidzer :'fraid not, I wanted to do all 4 of them, but dad's said no..which is a shame

I might still turn up to watch though

I'm not sure how competitive i'd be, i've only done about 100 laps in total round Boyndie and my bests is a 39.3, but i've never driven a kart with new tyres so I'm sure that would take the time down by 0.5/1s a lap!

Cool, what kind of kart do you have ? Not sure what laptimes are like these days with the new track, seem quicker anyway. I only ever raced on the old twisty circuit.

Since I don't have a kart I'll be hiring a club kart for the day, just a bit of a laugh. Hopefully some other ex-karters I used to race will be taking part, need some competition
Awesome, never checked this thread latley - i've a Rotax 125, I think the Club Racing guys do 37's/38's now, new circuit has one really bumpy corner - its truly horrendous to drive!

Edit: I only drove the old circuit in one of their old twin engined karts - managed to go of at the first hairpin at the end of the straight!

Haven't spun since though, in all those laps i've done - not sure if that means im not pushing or what...
I'm in the process of making a website about the car, so you'll be able to keep up to date with my grumpy expressions much more easily.
Strap a camera to the car and give us some onboard stuff

whats the engine in it? I saw a vid of you accelerating away and it looks quite quick.
We have a camera now It's not amazing to be honest, but it'll do the job for the time being, and more preferrable to bolting a camcorder in the sidepod.

It's a 2.0l Toyota straight 4, tuned by Tom's. With the restrictor in place it produces about 160hp at 6200rpm and 160lbft at 5700rpm. Consequently it has a narrow power band and a lot of drop off after peak (because the restrictor effect becomes more pronounced). We're thinking of having the restrictor removed (and remapping the fuel injection to suit), which will released about 110hp and give 270hp or so.

It is quite quick already though - like I said before, there was a 700hp Impreza, and it was only just quicker than us, despite it being our first time EVER and having a wonky setup.
Quote from tristancliffe :remapping the fuel injection to suit

I think it will be well worth it, even without taking the restrictor plate off, I was amazed at how a BMW E36 race car with an M5 V8 (work experience )could be remapped so easilly, no need to touch anything than a laptop and the results were amazing, frankly even for a power/torque curve it would be worth it. We used this guy http://www.chipwizards.co.uk/ and whilst taking the car to Rochdale and back did take 11 hours the results were worth it. He seems to be very highly rated, even just by looking at some of the seriously impressive kit in his yard waiting to go on the rollers (GT cars, prototypes and some ricer cars) and seems to know what he's doing.
#41 - J.B.
Quote from sil3ntwar :Strap a camera to the car and give us some onboard stuff

whats the engine in it? I saw a vid of you accelerating away and it looks quite quick.

What I can tell you is that a modern day F3 can go from 0-100 km/h in under three seconds. They have about 210 BHP so Tristan's won't be quite as fast.
Quote from J.B. :What I can tell you is that a modern day F3 can go from 0-100 km/h in under three seconds. They have about 210 BHP so Tristan's won't be quite as fast.

I think under 3 seconds is probably an exageration, I'd of thought maybe 3.5 seconds would be more realistic, they won't make 60 in one gear and a modern car has a super fast sequential 'box which allows flatshifting (not really because there is a power cut off, but the driver still keeps his foot on the floor) whereas Tristan's car is on a 5 speed H gate. Tristan's car can probably do 0-60 in 4.5 seconds, bloody fast, but that isn't where the speed is in a small single seater.
Yeah, you (should) only do one standing start per race (unless you spin :shy. But modern F3's are undoubtedly quicker, just as a modern F1/WRC car is quicker than it's forebears. But I can't afford a modern F3 car, so I'll have to suffice with this

Maybe one day we'll try and work out the 0-60 time - I think Andrew has a silly G-Meter thingy he bought off ebay that tells you your 0-60 time, 60-0 time, quarter mile time and instananeous acceleration. Just need to find a way of sticking it in the cockpit

Had an email today about Cadwell - we're on the reserve list, so may not actually be going. I can feel an ARDS test coming up quicker now, because I want to drive it some more
Okay, I've cancelled Cadwell, and we're applying for Brands Hatch indy circuit on the 9th September. I'm off out now to play with the throttle pedal and make it better for my feet.

Oh, and some of you might be interested in this little site I've knocked up. It's very early days, and I'm struggling at the moment to find time to update everything and keep it looking good. If you have suggestions for the site then I'd love to hear them (but by PM please). I know it's sparse at the moment, but it will get better with time (and after more events too ).

#45 - J.B.
I just read the Brands Hatch report at your website. I officially hate you now.

How about writing something here about the experience from a simracing point of view. Brands is available for many sims so have you done any comparisons? Are the 6 seconds you humiliated your older brother with LFS seconds? (as in he should have practiced more in LFS to look less n00bish) Would you still be alive if real life had ISI physics?
Bugger, I just typed loads and then lost it trying to insert a degree symbol. Stupid Firefox (that's what I'm going to blame anyway ).

I thought about writing about my event here, but decided that might be considered big headed, so I just let people click on the link in my sig if they were interested.

As for comparisons - the simple way of putting is that LFS is the only sim close to reality so far. ISI is just so far off it's a joke, and nK physics bugs (let alone all the other ones) mean that no comparison is possible.

Everything from the sound feedback (albeit not the sound quality) to the feel of slight high-speed oversteer is so close it's unreal. To those who think that the FOX is too oversteery at slow speeds, I must say they are as wrong as a wrong thing on National Wrong Day.

There are two major things that defy comparison though for me.
1. Braking - in LFS you can brake really late without worrying. You just slam down some gears and throw it in. It doesn't matter if you lock up or even fly off the track. In real life you are always wary of braking too late, locking a wheel, and during this second or two you have to juggle the clutch, brakes, throttle and a shifter, keeping an eye on the revs, your mirrors (if racing or being followed), looking for the apex. Add to this the stuff in point 2 and you can hopefully see why my braking in real life is MUCH less efficient that my braking in LFS.

2. Vibration, noise, forces, cramped conditions, fear of expense/injury, heat... All of these things sit there and try to trick you, so the experience is always less 'pure' than that possible in a sim. On the other side the feel through the seat of your pants (which is actually pretty well made up for in LFS by the FFB, the visuals and the sound) does make up for some of it, and you can feel oversteer/understeer a touch earlier than in LFS.

To be perfectly honest a direct comparison isn't possible, as the car and track are different, my levels of experience are vastly different, and my expectations are different too. But what I can compare tends to compare favourably with LFS.

ISI sims are a joke. Simple. They are not close in any way in my opinion. If real life was powered by ISI engines only a dozen people would bother motor racing, and the rest would get their kicks by sawing off their own head. And you can quote that anywhere.

In time I'll get more experience, and then perhaps a more accurate picture will emerge. I'm also hoping to go racing next year, either in Monoposto or the SEMSEC Open Single Seater championship. Club F3 doesn't interest me as the seriousness and costs are too high, and the snobbishness is vastly greater. I'd much rather learn in a friendly, low pressure environment where you buy each other pints afterwards.

This time next year, with luck, I'll be able to give a much better representation of the differences, but from what I've seen so far LFS and real life aren't THAT far apart...
#47 - J.B.
Wow, excellent and fast response. :up:

I can't think of much to respond since I don't have any single-seater experience but I'm glad you found LFS fairs as well as it does.

I guess the "realness" of the situation is really the major difference i.e. the vibrations and the wind and the noise etc. I liked the onboard clips BTW. They showed exactly these things and the steering wheel was also in clear view. Maybe you could try to protect the mic from the wind next time? I'm sure being able to hear the engine would make the footage even better.
Woah, I just took whiff of this project of yours Tristan. Nice one, best of luck with it.

Quote from J.B. :I liked the onboard clips BTW. They showed exactly these things and the steering wheel was also in clear view. Maybe you could try to protect the mic from the wind next time? I'm sure being able to hear the engine would make the footage even better.

Those certainly look like fun - the way the oversteer was corrected in some of the turns really reminded me of FOX driving visually. I think the mic suffered from the vibrations on the rear wing more so than the wind (you'll notice the sound is all distorted even when he's not moving, but sounds ok as the engine goes off - same when the rpms rev up and the vibrations are more high freq, you can hear clearly for a bit between gear changes), perhaps a rubber pad would help.
Good point, I'll try and damp the vibrations too
Just taken a look around the website and watched the video, looked great fun

From the onboard video it looked great, I guess the only problem with them small 2 run sprints is the tyres are probably barely reaching optimum temps .
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(thisnameistaken) DELETED by thisnameistaken

Formula 3 at Bentwaters Park
(61 posts, started )
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