Hey LFS community! New member and first time posting here, so go easy on me. So after playing the LFS for a week or so with my G25 I have came up with a few questions about racing logistics that I'm hoping you guys can help me with.

First let me throw a little background on me out there. Im a 22 year old college kid whos been an automotive enthusiast for too long (specifically Porsche). I didnt grow up in an automotive family nor do I have any friends in the culture so I have never really had any real life track time (minus one occasion) nor do I own a fun to drive car (unless an 09 Fusion 6 speed auto sounds like fun :/ ). This last super bowl weekend I was in Vegas and got the opportunity to drive a Cayman S and 458 at the Vegas Speedway on the Exotics racing track for roughly 12 laps which I can say really sparked my interest for racing, which has lead me LFS.

Now I mention my experience at Exotics Racing because before they let us on the track, they obviously gave us a lesson on how to drive on a track as this a first experience for 90% of the people there and I am using what they told me in LFS. Or at least trying to. So heres what I've come up with for questions.

1. How to go around a corner properly.
So this one is pretty simple right? From what I remember at ER (Exotics Racing), they told us something like this for a 90 degree right turn. Approach on the far left, brake early and brake hard, then turn in while letting off the brakes. Once you hit the apex, you should be 100% off the brake and slowly getting on the gas. They explained the gas and brake like squeezing an orange, for braking into a corner squeeze it hard but smoothly, then smoothly let off it while slowly starting to "squeeze" the gas on the way out of the corner until you are almost straight when you can apply full throttle.
So is this the idea I should be racing around in LFS? My whole point of having this game is to hopefully get comfortable with driving motions on a track for some day soon when I can get a track car in real life, so I would like these skills to carry over.

2. Braking into a corner, how much?
Now this question seems kind of obvious. From what I understand you brake up until the point of lock. Which makes sense. But my question is, if you have ABS enabled on a car and your are coming up to a corner, is the most efficient form of braking 100% brake pedal down as the ABS will get you up until lock or do you brake just before you see the ABS light flicker on the dash?

3. Downshifting coming into corners.
So heres an example. 200 out from a corner in 5th gear. Lets say you need to be in 3rd by the apex. So you start braking, revs drop, shift in to 4th, clutch out, revs drop more, shift to 3rd, clutch out and you're starting your turn in for the corner. From what I've saw on youtube and what not about people on real tracks it seems to look thats how they do it. However, what I've found in LFS is when doing this when letting the clutch out in 4th and 3rd, the car will move around quite a bit and sometimes can go off the track. So am I downshifting the correct way? I assume when letting the clutch out the engine braking is causing it to brake traction? Do I need to heel toe downshift to avoid this?

4. Last one, almost there. This is kind of a follow up on number 1. Now if ER has told me the proper way to go around a corner, as I'm starting my turn in I'm still on the brakes but not as hard as I was at the start of the corner. They said brake in a straight line, keep on the brakes a bit when you turn it to keep the front of the car loaded, and get off the brakes at the apex. In LFS, it seems the back end of the car loves to come around with braking in corners. I think its called trail braking? Either way, is it just a matter of finding the right balance to stay on the brakes but just enough to keep the car from coming around?

sorry for the short novel. Im really enjoying the game and appreciate any help you guys can give!

C-

Hi Cheapo, nice to see so many new faces around here recently!

ER has taught you the basics well and you've done good to listen well...

1. You're describing three principles in one: the first is to use every inch of the track to make the corner as shallow as possible to carry as much speed through it as you can. Ideally, you should turn in from the outermost point of the track, clip the inside as far inside as possible, and the speed and your acceleration should carry the car to the outside edge again. Have they told you about early/late apex and how it's sometimes better/faster to compromise the corner?
The second is not to coast - usually every moment you're completely both off the brakes and off the throttle is one you're not getting the most out of the car. Now, it wouldn't be racing if there wasn't also an exception to this rule: the corner, the car and/or the setup may dictate a degree of coasting - you'll find out when to with experience.
Lastly, smoothness... A racing idiom is "smooth is fast". It is important to note though that this doesn't necessarily describes the input, but the movement of the car. An overpowered, heavy cow on too narrow tyres (like V8 Supercars or the NASCAR-series) will need to be driven gingerly (the orange your instructors were speaking of), while a small and light car (maybe even FWD) may need to be manhandled to really be fast. To go off into a tangent (a small glimpse into the rabbit hole that are tyres), tyres have the most traction when they are just slipping a little bit (called slip angle for lateral movement and slip ratio for longitudinal) - it is a knife edge balancing act. One side means being slow, the other may mean your race is over (in real life that means damage you have to repair/pay, but also injury).

2. There are maybe a handful of drivers better than modern ABS systems, so using it if you're allowed is certainly advantageous. Keep in mind though, as the tyres are locking for instants, it can have an impact on tyre wear... Also, full on the brakes may prevent you from turning in efficiently, as all the traction is used up for decelerating the car...

3. This comes back to smoothness, but you already have the right idea... If you're going down one gear, your engine is running much lower RPMs than the driveline, so clutching in too fast sends a jolt through the driveline which upsets the car balance and maybe even causes tyre lockup. Now, any of the three pedals can prevent this: clutch in slower, but that causes slip therefore higher wear and temperature on the clutch, let off the brakes slightly, but that means you compromise your braking possibly for longer than the jolt lasts, or you could speed up the engine in the time you're shifting, which means you need to learn the art of operating three pedals with two feet, or heel toe for short.
Heel toe doesn't mean that you use exactly your heels and your toes to push the pedals, any contortion of your body that lets you push the throttle while still keeping the same amount of braking is fine.

4. Trail braking is just keeping on the brake while you're already turning into the corner. It's just a technique to keep the balance where you want it. Some cars (or better: some setups) don't like trail braking, while others almost require it. For example: if your car already pivots over the front wheels if you only think about turning you'll probably only swap ends with trail braking, whereas if it understeers heavily on turn in, trail braking will help alleviate that.
Brake balance is also an important factor: a balance too much forward will only overpower the front tyres and you'll only plough straight on, too much to the rear and you'll also just swap ends...

Phew, long text - seems I've written even more than you, hopefully you find these long-winded answers useful...

Haha well thanks you for the long reply, definitely helped clear some things up! Now time to get back on the track and see if I can apply it all

I'd say that you are correct

For me it is like first you go do say 20 or 40 laps on race setup to figure out the line and get the feel of the track. The turns which have fairly long straights are all mostly equal in technique. Then after some hotlaps on hotlap set you watch WR replay and learn from it: what he does differently, and why? You must try to figure out why he does it differently, so that you learn something, not just remember the particular sequence of brakes/steering/throttling and next track your guesses might be better!

Sometimes you want late or early apex depending on setup and downforce (later apex if you exit to a long straight for example).

Sometimes there are bunch of a turns/chikanes when you have some options and sometimes if you are limited in practice time you stick to the line you are stable on, not the fastest you saw in WR replay.

Sometimes you want to have straight brake lines (say if you must save tyres for any reason), but ofcourse they might not be the fastest.

Try this site or google more, you should try different stuff until you get the picture clear enough. http://www.drivingfast.net I found it quite interesting to read some time back.

PS this post was meant to be a short one

when you are braking the weight goes from the back of the car to the front of the car. so front tyres will get grippier because they have load on themselves. and rear will get unstable because all the weight is in front. when you try to turn in while all the weight and grip is at the front of the car rear will become unstable. I am talking about the force that makes your body go forward in the car when you use brakes.

thats why you should release braking quite a bit while going into the corner. otherwise you will put too much force on the front tyres (braking+turning)

the best way to go through a corner fast is to hit the apex (mostly) that will give you the widest angle, allowing you to carry more speed through a corner.

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a side note for the new site;

by the way, what happened to the registration dates? the new site still looks ugly to me. somehow i feel scawen hasnt had any input on the new site. because when he does something new, he does it so that you dont want the old one. here, i want the old lfsforum. main site is okay, but needs much improvement. including the removal of that picture exhibits the vw. not because it does exhibit the vw, but because its just bad, and makes people think its an atari game. while its not and graphics are much better (and getting better)

Quote from S.E.T.H :

...
the best way to go through a corner fast is to hit the apex (mostly) that will give you the widest angle, allowing you to carry more speed through a corner.
...

Generally it is correct, but I remember that when I was comparing my trajectory with faster guys I found that sometimes people go for a little narrower trajectory in the turns. And they were faster. I couldn't figure out why.

Then after some time I found it out (I hope). They were turning in earlier, very smooth but their steering was increasing to the very apex and on the exit they could throttle earlier and probably more efficient, so that their narrow exit ended up with meeting the outside of the turn because of counter-steering needed to balance the car on throttle.

Such turns enters are needed because of delayed weight transfer. If you start to turn say 1 meeter earlier than geometrical circle line suggests you trajectory becomes narrower, but your outer side of the car gets more load so you have probably more speed and traction through the apex.

Sometimes it can help and sometimes not however.

Well, they still turn in from the outermost point and kiss the apex, so they are taking the widest arc possible...

It's also not done to delay the weight transfer (which is one thing you don't even want to do) - setups soft enough to even have a measureable delay are not suitable for (road) track use. What you're probably seeing is the effect trailbraking has on the turn-in point - they're still braking hard, so too much steering input would overpower the front tyres and they would understeer off. Tyre load sensitivity makes it even more important. Other than that, (lateral) weight transfer has little to do with it.

Quote from bbman :

...It's also not done to delay the weight transfer...

I was meaning the opposite - they want weight transfer to start even earlier.

Tyre load sensitivity makes it even more important.





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This post is a little bit misleading. If you turned in earlier, your clipping point would be earlier and so your required turning radius would be relatively higher on corner exit. You would require more centripetal force from your tires and so you would be able get on the throttle later, not earlier. I think you are overthinking the problem here with the "delayed weight transfer". It really comes down to the WRs having a better setup or being more smooth if they are taking an earlier apex than you.

Quote from vitaly_m :

Quote from S.E.T.H :

...
the best way to go through a corner fast is to hit the apex (mostly) that will give you the widest angle, allowing you to carry more speed through a corner.
...

Generally it is correct, but I remember that when I was comparing my trajectory with faster guys I found that sometimes people go for a little narrower trajectory in the turns. And they were faster. I couldn't figure out why.

Then after some time I found it out (I hope). They were turning in earlier, very smooth but their steering was increasing to the very apex and on the exit they could throttle earlier and probably more efficient, so that their narrow exit ended up with meeting the outside of the turn because of counter-steering needed to balance the car on throttle.

Such turns enters are needed because of delayed weight transfer. If you start to turn say 1 meeter earlier than geometrical circle line suggests you trajectory becomes narrower, but your outer side of the car gets more load so you have probably more speed and traction through the apex.

Sometimes it can help and sometimes not however.

Sorry, I have a dumb question,

what is "trajectory" meaning in racing ?,

is it the force condition when cornering while off-throttle, or what ?,

thanks.

As far I know "trajectory" is just another word for "line."
trajectory, line, path...all mean the same, the path that the car travels.

Quote from Gutholz :

As far I know "trajectory"..., the path that the car travels.

Owh I see, it's only about X and Y coordinates,
it's nothing about Z and car velocity.

Thank you, Gutholz.