exactly this was my reaction when it happened. FIA shit
exactly this was my reaction when it happened. FIA shit
Good job again, Ferrari. Bunch of tards.
Agreed. What the ****?
I think he got the penalty because he used the run off area to prepare his pass on the following corner. That's at least how I see it.
Right, but only because he was pushed off the track...
The reason for Magnussen's penalty at Monza was that he "did not leave enough room for car 77 [Bottas] in turn one and forced him off the track". That's exactly what happened to Vergne here. He was attempting an entirely legitimate pass on the outside but he wasn't left enough room and was forced off the track.
Boring race imho. Cars driving in single line in full tire and fuel saving mode for the most part of the race. In the end the anticlimatic drs pass by hamilton was really the crowning on the cake. Definitely a race to forget. Vergne did look really good though
the only special thing about this race is that maldonado didn't crash
Verge wasn't pushed. Had there been a wall where the white line was he would have conceded the corner before trying to idiotically drive round he outside.
This new breed of tracks with extra run off (even on a street circuit) is developing some weird pussyass racing behaviors.
This new breed of tracks with extra run off (even on a street circuit) is developing some weird pussyass racing behaviors.
Alonso should have given both spots back imo. He just braked too late on purpose and ran through.
Was Bottas pushed off track at Monza?
Alonso though, he could get away with murder.
@Intrepid - I don't know if you're ignoring my question above or just missed my post.
Anyway, do you think Bottas was pushed off track at Monza?
See, it's symptomatic of a larger problem in F1 (and some other forms of motorsport) at the moment and is a serious question with regards to overtaking.
If you think that what happened with Vergne in Singapore was simply him trying to "idiotically drive round he outside" then it follows that you should also think that way about Bottas at Monza, right? I mean, or else you're just totally inconsistent and you should be ignored.
The problem is that if drivers are allowed to defend the inside of every corner (one defensive move per straight) and they're allowed to simply push people who have significant overlap off the track, where do we get overtaking? It's pretty clear to me that in both the Bottas move at Monza and the Vergne move at Singapore they were attempting entirely legitimate overtaking moves, with a large overlap.
There are some forms of motorsport (including V8 Supercars, which I believe has among the best driving standards in the world) where the driver on the inside simply isn't allowed to push someone on the outside off the track, if they have overlap. That's the way racing should be. There has to be respect between the drivers, where we see hard but fair racing. If people can simply drive others off the track because they're on the outside then it's complete nonsense.
edit: Additionally here's a post which includes some images of a situation very similar to the Vergne incident from 2012. In that incident Webber was penalised too, which I didn't understand then either.
Anyway, do you think Bottas was pushed off track at Monza?
See, it's symptomatic of a larger problem in F1 (and some other forms of motorsport) at the moment and is a serious question with regards to overtaking.
If you think that what happened with Vergne in Singapore was simply him trying to "idiotically drive round he outside" then it follows that you should also think that way about Bottas at Monza, right? I mean, or else you're just totally inconsistent and you should be ignored.
The problem is that if drivers are allowed to defend the inside of every corner (one defensive move per straight) and they're allowed to simply push people who have significant overlap off the track, where do we get overtaking? It's pretty clear to me that in both the Bottas move at Monza and the Vergne move at Singapore they were attempting entirely legitimate overtaking moves, with a large overlap.
There are some forms of motorsport (including V8 Supercars, which I believe has among the best driving standards in the world) where the driver on the inside simply isn't allowed to push someone on the outside off the track, if they have overlap. That's the way racing should be. There has to be respect between the drivers, where we see hard but fair racing. If people can simply drive others off the track because they're on the outside then it's complete nonsense.
edit: Additionally here's a post which includes some images of a situation very similar to the Vergne incident from 2012. In that incident Webber was penalised too, which I didn't understand then either.
90% of time the drive on the outside to the approach to a corner does this very simple thing - concedes. That means 90% of the time there are no silly 'incidents'. 90% of the time race drivers aren't stupid.
Reason being the inside car has observable speed and momentum that when you put two brain cells together you know that naturally there car will move across the circuit on exit. You literally learn this when you're about 8. Had T1 had gravel run off now driver would go round the outside there.
Now because of the nature of circuits and tarmac runoff drivers are 'braving' it on the outside a bit more because there is no physical consequence. They get on the radio and basically lie by saying they were pushed off. The problem is they shouldn't have put themselves in that position in the first place. Before you even enter the corner you can figure out where the inside vehicle will be on exit. look at Vergne's moves on Kimi and Bottas. Each time on the exit of the corner he leaves NO room at the exit for the car he is passnig. Should he be punished for that? Each time the drivers conceded. Well they could've just not conceded and drove flat out round the outside and complained to Charlie
You have to be calculated of course. If you think a driver is weak minded and is easy to bully you can stick it round the outside knowing they'll back off. But any driver with an ounce of self respect won't just gift rap you room on the outside. Generally speaking these types of drivers never attempt overtakes anyway and are EXTREMELY easy to defend against
Reason being the inside car has observable speed and momentum that when you put two brain cells together you know that naturally there car will move across the circuit on exit. You literally learn this when you're about 8. Had T1 had gravel run off now driver would go round the outside there.
Now because of the nature of circuits and tarmac runoff drivers are 'braving' it on the outside a bit more because there is no physical consequence. They get on the radio and basically lie by saying they were pushed off. The problem is they shouldn't have put themselves in that position in the first place. Before you even enter the corner you can figure out where the inside vehicle will be on exit. look at Vergne's moves on Kimi and Bottas. Each time on the exit of the corner he leaves NO room at the exit for the car he is passnig. Should he be punished for that? Each time the drivers conceded. Well they could've just not conceded and drove flat out round the outside and complained to Charlie
You have to be calculated of course. If you think a driver is weak minded and is easy to bully you can stick it round the outside knowing they'll back off. But any driver with an ounce of self respect won't just gift rap you room on the outside. Generally speaking these types of drivers never attempt overtakes anyway and are EXTREMELY easy to defend against
No, he tried.. and you might have seen an overtaking action in F1. Wouldn't you think that just the 8th wonder of the world happened?
Perhaps it is again a bit more clear why all those hidious tracks should be banned... and why there should be grass/sand after a corner instead of these tarmac run-off areas
Ohh no.. I might have exceeded the forum straight forward limits. This whole vagueness is asking for trouble and opens doors for 'corruption'. He is penalized and another driver not.. jeej 1 million noob discussions on 1 race day about a thing which shouldnt be there in the first place
Nah he knew he wouldn't make the corner but he knew he didn't have to. What he did was literally the only way he could have passed either redbull, and he was absolutely not forced into cutting there, so he should have given both spots back.
Who cares? It didn't affect the result at all as he got screwed over by the safety car.
Didn't affect the result? How could you possibly know that?
I "care" (I use the quotation marks because it's a relative term) because if you're talking about track limits and overtaking, then Alonso's move just shows how easily exploited it apparently is. He wasn't forced, he wasn't avoiding anyone, and he would not have made the pass otherwise. Had he passed just one car, he would have needed to give it back, but because it was two.....profit?
An Alonso win would have done F1 the world of good. There's your answer.
Because I'm not stupid?
Good luck to Ferrari asking Raikkonen to crash on purpose for Alonso to win in Singapore!
And your crystal ball told you nothing different could possibly have happened if Alonso was dropped back to 4th in lap one. Ok. That sounds pretty solid to me.
I spent about 15 minutes last night looking on YouTube and found these examples from 2012 and 2013 where a successful pass was made around the outside when there was either grass and gravel or a wall on the outside:
Vettel on Rosberg, Australia 2012
Hamilton on Vergne, Spain 2012
Alonso on Grosjean, Valencia 2012
Raikkonen on Button, Singapore 2013
With a bit more time (and expanding the search further back than 2012) I'm sure I could find more examples.
So...they actually were pushed off the track, but they shouldn't have put themselves in that position in the first place. Right...so you've never seen a successful move round the outside?
http://youtu.be/E8ImHPvOxLs - but I'm probably wrong.
That was so obviously CGI. Don't you know Intrepid can't possibly be wrong...?
I guess all it takes is full and obvious co-operation from the guy on the inside, but if not, then the wiser driver falls back in behind (as Tristan did on several occasions in that video too! ).
).This thread is closed
Formula 1 Season 2014
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