Greetings!!! I am so excited to be back around, after sometime, I had to face some health problems and I wanted to be back early. the thing is, I managed to do the transition from using a gamepad (xbox 360 controller) to a driving force gt racing wheel, and recently I could get a logitech G25 (dont get me wrong, i couldnt use the DFGT because a problem with my shoulders, so i barely used it)

the thing is, with the clutch pedal, I wanted to race the most realistic way I could, using the H shifter and without autoclutch, (note please I never had a manual car in my life, just fewer times driving friend's cars just to feel it).

and at the begginning i had a lot of fun stalling the car and spining out (i never saw it coming, i was pretty good with the gamepad but i am so slow using the wheel with the shifter lol)...so after many laps of granny shifting, not double clutching as i should and almost blewing the engines, i started to get the hang of it, my miss-shift are less now but....

what about downshifting??
I know heel and toe to rev match while downshifting helps to improve the car's weight balance under heavy braking (kinda avoid to end spininng, right?) but i cant see the effect on lfs, I use FWD, and RWD, the XRT, XRG, XFG, maybe i need more practice to notice this better but I cant see the benefits of heel and toe while downshifting, maybe im downshifting too late to notice anything???


It would be nice if somebody could explain me a little bit more about this, imo, i think, im downshifting too "soft"to notice the real difference between using or not using the heel and toe.


pd: sorry for my bad english

Heel and toe must be performed extremly well to be better than normal downshifting.

In FWD cars it is not so important, because it is easier to avoid blocking the front tires.
In a powerful RWD car, you usually want to tap the throttle when downshifting from 3rd to 2nd gear because you can brake quite harder if you avoid the rear lock.


Though my real advise would be to learn to drive normal, you'll quite some time until you are able to reduce gear, brake hard, keep the steering wheel pointing where you want and lifting the clutch slowlly to not lose your rear.
I needed several months until I felt confortable in almost any circumnstance, but I'm still not doing the heel and toe because this need me wearing shows while driving and I prefer going barefoot on my socks haha

Hi there, always good to hear people recovering from illness, good on ya!

Not noticing a difference can have one of two reasons: either you're doing it really well out of the box, or the driven tires are not on the limit of traction while you're braking.

Changing down a gear adds a sudden jolt of braking force on the driven tires through the driveline due to the engine revving way slower than it would at that speed in the lower gear. This jolt can be alleviated either through slipping the clutch (which obviously puts much strain on it, something you may not want), or revving the engine up so the difference between engine revs and driveline revs is less.

The most important time to get heel toe-shifting right is in a RWD car with enough braking force on the rear tires that the jolt would lock the rears, sending you into a spin. Otherwise, the tires will soak up the force or, in the case of a FWD, the car will just understeer (not advisable either for making the corner or flatspotting, but not as bad).

Quote from Whiskey :

Heel and toe must be performed extremly well to be better than normal downshifting.

In FWD cars it is not so important, because it is easier to avoid blocking the front tires.
In a powerful RWD car, you usually want to tap the throttle when downshifting from 3rd to 2nd gear because you can brake quite harder if you avoid the rear lock.

Quote from Whiskey :

.... because this need me wearing shows while driving and I prefer going barefoot on my socks haha

I am still working hard on my manual shifting skills because I notice that when I use sequential or paddle shifting, im way better (but i really want to master the H shifter.

Personally I love to use socks because I dont like the idea of mixing my foot's smell with the pedals, even with hands, i use gloves too lol.

Quote from bbman :

Hi there, always good to hear people recovering from illness, good on ya!

thanks my friend !

Quote from bbman :

Not noticing a difference can have one of two reasons: either you're doing it really well out of the box, or the driven tires are not on the limit of traction while you're braking.

I need to check this, in the telemetry, is there a way to see the maximum grip available just before losing grip??

Quote from bbman :

Changing down a gear adds a sudden jolt of braking force on the driven tires through the driveline due to the engine revving way slower than it would at that speed in the lower gear. This jolt can be alleviated either through slipping the clutch (which obviously puts much strain on it, something you may not want), or revving the engine up so the difference between engine revs and driveline revs is less.

The most important time to get heel toe-shifting right is in a RWD car with enough braking force on the rear tires that the jolt would lock the rears, sending you into a spin. Otherwise, the tires will soak up the force or, in the case of a FWD, the car will just understeer (not advisable either for making the corner or flatspotting, but not as bad).

this is tricky for me because, in real life i have to drive a pick-up truck, is an automatic, but you have to trust me when i have to take a downhill and i need to use engine braking to help the brakes, the rear tyres locks, i managed to practice to reduce the tyres locking (with a somehow heel and toe) because this behavior is typical, at least in my case:

a) braking on downhills, using the brake pedal and engine braking

b) braking with the pedal and engine braking on wet roads (downhill or flat roads), basically the same if there is sand on the road, or gravel or any kind of conditions that make the road slippery


i just saw this video about the "perfect score" for a drift (drift muscle series), and this guy just did a crazy pedals work, i can see him clutching without shifting (and i just ask myself why did he do that?, i guess he pulled the e-brak) and even heel and toe without downshift, it blew my mind, check him out:



Thanks for your feedback.
pd: sorry for my bad english, it seems i have a long way to master the H shifter lol.

If I am correct, the clutch without shift is called a clutch kick. I'm pretty sure it's used to keep the wheels spinning during a drift. Used it many times in LFS, and it does help!

Quote from jnr89 :

I need to check this, in the telemetry, is there a way to see the maximum grip available just before losing grip??

Even better, you can look at the traction levels while you're watching a replay or even while racing (if you really want to): just toggle forces view (default key is "F")! The bigger the vector arrows, the more force is exerted, and the color tells you how near to the limit you are (red = sliding).

Quote from jnr89 :

this is tricky for me because, in real life i have to drive a pick-up truck, is an automatic, but you have to trust me when i have to take a downhill and i need to use engine braking to help the brakes, the rear tyres locks, i managed to practice to reduce the tyres locking (with a somehow heel and toe) because this behavior is typical, at least in my case:

a) braking on downhills, using the brake pedal and engine braking

b) braking with the pedal and engine braking on wet roads (downhill or flat roads), basically the same if there is sand on the road, or gravel or any kind of conditions that make the road slippery

It is probably a quite similar situation, as a pick-up truck's brake bias is usually set with a loaded flatbed in mind. As such, I can see how the added load shift on a decline or the generally lower grip levels on a wet road could lock the rear wheels. So you probably have a good basis already, now you just have to incorporate the clutch into your motion...

Quote from jnr89 :

i just saw this video about the "perfect score" for a drift (drift muscle series), and this guy just did a crazy pedals work, i can see him clutching without shifting (and i just ask myself why did he do that?, i guess he pulled the e-brak) and even heel and toe without downshift, it blew my mind, [...]

As Ryoso said, the "clutch-kicking" technique is used by drifters to purposely breaking the rear loose and initiate a drift by adding the jolt I spoke about to the tires that are already at their limit (think the "traction circle", you can't accelerate/decelerate as much when you're cornering). I don't really see that in the video though, it seems to me the driver tries to keep the turbo spooling with the clutch while he controls the angle with the handbrake and the throttle. All his rather abrupt inputs are focused on keeping the rear tires spinning for as long as possible. I'd say the footwork in the video is singular to drifting or even just this car/track combination. If your focus is speed, on a track especially, you'll need to be much less busy and much smoother with your inputs.

Some examples of great footwork, in order from less to more grip, by masters of speed:
Walter Röhrl in his prime, rallying in the 80ies (rally car on dirt, on the channel of our resident clipmaster deggis)
Ayrton Senna driving the Honda NSX around Suzuka (road car on track)
James Courtney in Hamilton 2011 (race car on wet road track)
James Courtney (again) in Queensland 2009 (race car on dry track)

Clutch-kicking can also be useful for launches, as it gives you that "extra kick".

If you're kicking the clutch at any point during a start (or "launch"), you're doing it wrong...

Depends on the car. Sometimes max clutch torque is about as much as your tyres can take anyway.

Apart from going away from the original question for a one-liner, I don't see the point or I'm missing something big here... I see only two reasons for "kicking the clutch" in hard acceleration (apart from shifting, of course):
1. not enough throttle, engine bogs down, kick the clutch to bring the revs up - you did it wrong...
2. too much throttle, tires wildly spinning, kick the clutch to give them time to regain traction - you're doing it wrong (probably also better to use the throttle for that)...

I might have misunderstood the question. I thought it was about smoothly releasing clutch at launch instead of suddenly releasing it. Reading the posts again it appears to be about disengaging and reengaging clutch without shifting after the initial clutch release. In that case, I see no reason to do it either, unless the car starts from a slippy position but immediately enters a much grippy zone and the engine bogs down even with full throttle, which is anything but common.

Eh, I could be wrong. It just seems to help.

The short answer:
Heel to toe shifting is really only only applicable in cars with non-synchromesh transmissions such as one with a hewland sequential gearbox because it doesn't have the ability to be put into any gear at any rpm the same way cars with synchromesh transmissions have nowadays.

The full answer:
There are a few reasons why heel-to-toe shifting is used in racing but the primary reason is to keep the drivetrain operating smoothly without jerky motions as that transfers to the car which affects its handling capability.

You want the car to be in the optimal RPM range at all times when racing. The braking/shifting procedures always happen before entering a corner. By the time you reach the turn-in point for the corner, you should be done with braking and in the proper gear with the car stance stabilized, while getting it ready for the weight transfer which is about to occur. The car should going at a constant speed and is known as "balancing the throttle", meaning you can't speed up or slow down as it will unbalance the car and reduce traction on the outside tires. With balanced throttle, you're able to maximize traction as both outside tires are planted to the road which then will allow the car to exit the corner sooner and while on the throttle.

It's explained in detail here: https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/81873