Cargame.nl- Do you know what, there are people in this world that think and feel differently about things compared to you...maybe you should learn that?

Constantly attacking people that do still read or comment on this forum is not going to make them stop or change....

Everyone is different...I still read and occasionally comment because I still love this game. I met many nice people and spent many fun hours driving or helping or in-sim things or whatever...I still feel I have an association...no matter that I have not formally been online for many years.

When the time is right for me then I will be back...will you still be there?....Who knows but if you still want to comment about this, that or the other then feel free to do so!

Well said Anthoop.
I'd also add that people (myself included) can still play, just not play online. Something that's a foreign concept around here for some reason.
In the end, we all paid the same price for a ticket and have every right to use the software and participate in the community as we like.

Quote from Anthoop :

When the time is right for me then I will be back...will you still be there?...

50 years? Probably not.

Attacking is your perception by the way. Maybe you notice the question marks someday.

Whats next for LfS? That's tough. I gave previous comments a brief over, so don't quote me harshly. But here are things I personally would like:
1) Improve the AI line. So that new drivers learn the proper line.

2) Gonna get hate, but lets give Demo drivers something new. Either the UF1 or a specific track configuration of Blackwood.

3) Improve the tutorials, and make it easier to understand OR give more setups to defaults.

4) Get the Open Track Configurations, and make them Official tracks. AI lines & all.

5) Finish South City. We know about the extra road by the on-ramp, so lets use it. It would go with 4) very well, because it can add more configurations and a new Sprint track.

6) Extend Kyoto Ring. Westhill is a lot like Aston, it has more variety. So where does this put Kyoto Ring? 3 tracks variations compared to Astons 6 & Westhills 5 WITH new open track layout. Kyoto, I think, can be like Westhill: Make it bigger, better, and more fun to drive.

6-1) For the love of Racing Jesus, I want a Kyoto Super GP as a standard track where all 3 configurations touch bases.

7) Stating the obvious: new track & car. But... I do not want the VW. I'd rather LfS get a Superbike, Daytona Prototype, or possibly improve the MRT to an updated kart.

8) Four Words: Night. Racing. Thank you.

9) Instead of a Drivers Positioning List, the option of Car #'s. (000, AZA, T08, etc.)

10) I guess this could tie back to 4) & 9), but auto position instead of waiting on the checkpoint.

Quote from Texpelt88 :

1) Improve the AI line. So that new drivers learn the proper line.

Scawen actually did some improvements for the AI, but it's designed to work with new tyre physics so it won't be released before the new tyre physics patch is out.
(Source: https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/1454911)

Quote from cargame.nl :

Another story of how it was and how it is now. It's great and all grandpa's but it adds not much more to this forum then another 'geez, life changed hhmm' personal description of your situation. It's been stated before that the team doesn't want to increase in size. Less people less progress. Besides, there has been just a great update; Westhill.. I suggest you at least try it, where was you when it got released anyway?

People can 'moan' it isn't any good or what any reason... But it's a bit silly, disrespectful even, to see that some people show up here start the complain train again but never appeared online in the last years. It's very weird actually, if I am not interested anymore then I'm not interested. Unbelievable that a large group of people keep stalking something which is out of their lives for years, what kind of disorder is this?

Grandpas? I'm 24 hardly a grandpa, not sure why you felt the need to attack me personally.

I have been playing this game for 10 years, I don't play at the moment but that doesn't mean that I wont be back. For me the problem isn't the game or the lack of development or any significant changes. The problem is that right now I cannot go onto the game and find a server where there are a decent amount of people for me to have a decent race with.

I might find maybe 1 or 2 people that I can race but nothing like it used to be. Popularity is a big issue for me because if I can't get a decent race then what am I playing for, that's the fun factor completely gone for me really. Nothing wrong with the game, I have tried Westhill and it's good, I haven't complained about the game or development my only quarrel is that the popularity has fallen because of other people's perception of these issues.

I pop back onto the forums every now and then to catch up, read up on development notes etc because I love the game and I haven't had the feeling that I had with this game ever since. One day I will come back and I will see that popularity is back because of some major update (be it tyre physics, track updates or graphical updates) and I can again do what I love doing with this game. Nothing will stop me with that.

Quote from Flame CZE :

Well, every time they told us an estimated time of release, it took longer than expected and they got negative feedback from some people for not keeping the "promises". So that's why Scawen seems to be more hesitant now.

Scawen can be a bit grumpy at times but they also do not care that much what the customer base wants. For example a quote from Scawen:

Quote :

I know the Scirocco is held up as the holy grail of cars by many people in the LFS community, but it's really just another front wheel drive car, although a nice sporty one. -snip- You might as well forget about the Scirocco for the time being. That will be released when the new tyre physics is complete.

And one from October 2013 when the development started again:

Quote :

LFS income has gradually gone down as it always does between updates. That that has increased the urgency of finishing the tyre physics. So I plan to get down to it, make the appropriate approximations and sort out a good physically based system, with enough assumptions to make it workable, accepting that total realism is an unachievable goal.

So if the original update to tyre model drove Scawen to the brink of 'insanity' and lost the spark (my interpretation I wonder how the re-imagining is going to go as it sure sounds like a moro trivial thing from the post above (and I'm sure it isn't). I just wonder whether Scawen has the enthusiasm to really dig in deep again.

Tyre model is a really complicated, even in iRacing (or iceRacing as some like to call it) Dave has been working years upon years (6). And they are making progress and not trying to approximate too much even when there are a lot of unknowns. The way iRacing is doing it is something called "first principles model, not an empirical model" and what makes is doubly hard is that they are trying to recreate the actual real life race-car and not a fictional one where you can fudge a lot of things.

Racetech magazine article, starting from page 30
http://edition.pagesuite-professional.co.uk/launch.aspx?pbid=b515eee0-42a6-4eec-9cf0-72e1fc49f47f

Wiki:
In physics and other sciences, theoretical work is said to be from first principles, or ab initio, if it starts directly at the level of established science and does not make assumptions such as empirical model and fitting parameters.

Quote from aaltomar :

Tyre model is a really complicated, even in iRacing (or iceRacing as some like to call it) Dave has been working years upon years (6). And they are making progress and not trying to approximate too much even when there are a lot of unknowns. The way iRacing is doing it is something called "first principles model, not an empirical model" and what makes is doubly hard is that they are trying to recreate the actual real life race-car and not a fictional one where you can fudge a lot of things.

Racetech magazine article, starting from page 30
http://edition.pagesuite-professional.co.uk/launch.aspx?pbid=b515eee0-42a6-4eec-9cf0-72e1fc49f47f

Wiki:
In physics and other sciences, theoretical work is said to be from first principles, or ab initio, if it starts directly at the level of established science and does not make assumptions such as empirical model and fitting parameters.

Are you trying to say that some title is more approximate-ish than another? Really, it is always approximation and making up the values trying to make the model behaving the way you want it. Lets face it, no one really knows how do tyres work exactly, they always build and test them in real life.

Sorry, but this is gonna sound rude: ENOUGH WITH THE FRICKIN TIRES! I get it, it's a big deal. But, come on, talk about something outside the box or new. Not that. Please.

Quote from Texpelt88 :

Sorry, but this is gonna sound rude: ENOUGH WITH THE FRICKIN TIRES! I get it, it's a big deal. But, come on, talk about something outside the box or new. Not that. Please.

Unfortunately, as much as I agree with you, the FRICKEN TIRES are holding up all other major progress at this point.

Quote from edge3147 :

Quote from Texpelt88 :

Sorry, but this is gonna sound rude: ENOUGH WITH THE FRICKIN TIRES! I get it, it's a big deal. But, come on, talk about something outside the box or new. Not that. Please.

Unfortunately, as much as I agree with you, the FRICKEN TIRES are holding up all other major progress at this point.

Well.... Fine. I know the tires are the hold up. But no more arguing. Seriously, it's old. I think Racing Jesus (Or other religious symbol) would be ashamed.

Quote from snewham :

Grandpas? I'm 24 hardly a grandpa, not sure why you felt the need to attack me personally.

Is that flagged as an attack? I use that classification to everyone which is saying "ye everything was better X years ago".

By the way, 2007, thats eight years ago.. Internet to real world compared thats about eighty years where Fifa 08 and Nintendo's "Dr Kawashima's Brain Training: How Old is Your Brain?" where the biggest game sellers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_in_video_gaming

The games from which you can escape from the real world are having a much much higher market share and it's impossible to re-gain any of that because they are highly addictive (and stupid).

If you see the life on AC servers on a common saturday afternoon it's not very different;
http://www.cargame.nl/forum/acservers.php (Yes I was bored, build a LFSW like page a couple of months ago)

Five full servers and they only have half of the slots available compared to LFS. Only Iracing seems to do well.

* By the way... I mentioned it before.. Don't underestimate the power of the hacked environment... Hunderds, thousands you never see online because they are on 'dark'-LFS. Thats why I suggested take away the LAN functionality and make something that the master server can control the internet functionality. Or worst case scenario that you can only host from LFS in a virtual host environment from a LFShost where you are allowed to run a LFS server exec but not able to download it (*and what else you want to do like a true dedi environment, including webhosting, FTP services or whatever)... Although.. The biggest problem with that last option is Brazil, AU, Asia etc. I wonder how Iracing solved that, most probably they just don't care.

I really don't think that piracy is the issue at all.

It may be better in Europe but the only servers that have drivers are the demo servers. There just aren't enough regulars racing anymore.

The best solution to get numbers up would be to release Westhill on demo. Also the UFR and XFR but lock setup for demo users. Give them a taste of the cars but encourage them to buy to get to setup the cars.

That will get more drivers, encourage new users, give the work done on Westhill some exposure and encourage more sales.

Judging from the Occ Rift release there's no point in relying on that increasing the user base. Judging from Scrawens views on using 7 then I wouldn't expect much further progress there.

There's no point in waiting for the next great update, it would be better to use what's there, encourage more racing, get more people online and build on that.

If nothing's done then the situation will only get worse and we'll lose even more servers.

Quote from cargame.nl :

Don't underestimate the power of the hacked environment... Hunderds, thousands you never see online because they are on 'dark'-LFS.

...from which 90% will never ever buy LFS because either "it's too expensive" (for many kids in eastern europe 30€ is quite big money) or "I will never pay money for a game" (allthough they have invested hundreds of € in their gaming machines and other hardware,so they did pay for gaming). I have heard/read these and similar sentences first hand,so I know what I'm talking about.

First hand from kids yeah, it's not about the money it's about the culture. You cannot say to a large group of people aahhh.. They can't afford, lets just ignore and let them have it. The same group keeps stabbing in the back promoting in all languages on the web from Arabic to Polish to Lithuanian, Russian to who knows what language how to crack .. Websites/forums, Youtube and Facebook (with literally thousands of likes). More serious people get interested in LFS, read about it, is it worth to get a S2 license? Hmm no, the online environment is completely dead... Oh wait there is a crack!

Before you know it the now official servers also go that way and then what? End of LFS.

I also know what I am talking about. And I also talk to people from Eastern Europe.. What, I even invite them in my own house.

Quote from cargame.nl :

I also know what I am talking about.

So you are proposing that Scawen should devote his time when working on this game to clamping down on crackers?

I do not agree.

Can you stop putting quotes out of context? We are discussing people here from Eastern Europe and the assumption that I have no idea whats going on there. This is not the case.. And I hate repeating myself but by just ignoring criminal activity doesn't make it magically disappear. What Scawen wants to do with his time he can figure that out perfectly by himself. I'm only giving my opinion here that, as others suggest, simply producing more content is not going to work anymore. Unless you want to sell it to the bigger public like AC is doing. Which also will saturate over time. And they have great problems with hackers/crackers as well. Again Iracing is the only sim which is problem free concerning this. And successful.

I can guess what comes afterwards, but do not want to talk about it. I do not know what happens to the racers so I speak of what I see in drift servers. just see a lot of lazy people who think know everything, ignore people by name or team tags, etc .... of course the problem is the community and not in LFS. maybe ppl come back with a support for track creation (exemple : real life tracks) and create more options like engine, etc .. in today's cars. i cant see real life cars, LFS with real life cars is not more LFS. I think tracks can be made by users with few rules, maybe evaluation period made by developers before that content be released...( I think devs save time and we would have more content). just my opinion

Quote from farcar :

So, the new (and great) Westhill environment has been out for a little while now.

Just wondering: where to now?
Do the devs have anything in the pipeline for the short to medium term for the project?

From what I read: Eric's tools, DX9 tech, and tire physics. My wish is for better FFB, as it is a deal breaker for me atm.

Quote from Racer X NZ :

I really don't think that piracy is the issue at all.

The best solution to get numbers up would be to release Westhill on demo.

I think it's worth exploring how the content could better be organized into products. For instance, selling each class of vehicle as an individual product. The bottom line is that people have found a lot of success with different price structures, and LFS is probably too expensive.

As an aside: We should probably think kind thoughts about Scawen and Eric if we want more LFS. Talking shit about their styles is only going to bug them out.

Quote from cargame.nl :

Can you stop putting quotes out of context?

Ye...when you stop talking bs..sure.

YOU are discussing people from Eastern Europe...no one else!

To presume that one person ie Scawen, can "take on" hundreds or even thousands of cheats is silly...I would much rather he concentrated on content.

How many people are involved with Iracing compared to LFS?....like comparing Google to a local post office!.... sheesh.

Ehh no, thats Rony.. As far as I know the Arabic language is rarely spoken @Eastern Europe (keep it that way)

I am not allowed to do links to illegal Facebook pages, forums, Youtube videos and even complete websites but its big. And its the first impression what you make or break as sim. If I would have been demo then I would have known what I would have done.

And yes it are thousands of hacks (cheats is something different). And yes there can be done something about it. It starts with ideas.. Not with whining.. From former players. Size of Iracing has nothing to do with the system, no idea why you mention that anyway. Pointless.

Honestly don't see what's hard in adding some more coders to the team. There are a lot of amazing coders in the community that will be glad to help. I just think for such a huge project this is a lot for 1 person..

Been on LFS for 7-8 years now took a break and came back 6 years later and it is still the same team and same game with few little updates. Sad to say but the community is really dying out. People only stick to LFS now because it is truly the best racing sim out for pc at the moment. Just a matter of time until something else comes and steal the remaining players that still plays.

Quote from -LegoBased- :

Honestly don't see what's hard in adding some more coders to the team. There are a lot of amazing coders in the community that will be glad to help. I just think for such a huge project this is a lot for 1 person..

Been on LFS for 7-8 years now took a break and came back 6 years later and it is still the same team and same game with few little updates. Sad to say but the community is really dying out. People only stick to LFS now because it is truly the best racing sim out for pc at the moment. Just a matter of time until something else comes and steal the remaining players that still plays.

I agree, adding that some of these players do not stay more than 15 minutes by LFS be getting really boring

Quote from cargame.nl :

And yes it are thousands of hacks (cheats is something different). And yes there can be done something about it. It starts with ideas.. Not with whining.. From former players. Size of Iracing has nothing to do with the system, no idea why you mention that anyway. Pointless.

When I said "cheats" I mean people that are cheating the system...

I agree with what Eclipsed said...the largest majority of these people would never buy LFS anyway, so you have very little to gain.

Of course the amount of people working on Iracing compared to LFS makes a difference. I see this situation in the same vain as setup stealing....Scawen could spend time preventing it but within 5 minutes some spotty kid has broken the code and within a week everyone can do it.
I do not agree with stealing software and it would not be how I would play LFS even if today was my first day...but then 24 quid is nothing in todays world of gaming and micro transactions...add-ons...etc

Again...what is to be gained by preventing people stealing it when they will never buy it anyway....why spend anytime coding or whatever when that time could be spent on actual game improvements, as a paid member I do not care about what other people do...only what I can have.

Quote from Anthoop :

Quote from cargame.nl :

And yes it are thousands of hacks (cheats is something different). And yes there can be done something about it. It starts with ideas.. Not with whining.. From former players. Size of Iracing has nothing to do with the system, no idea why you mention that anyway. Pointless.

When I said "cheats" I mean people that are cheating the system...

I agree with what Eclipsed said...the largest majority of these people would never buy LFS anyway, so you have very little to gain.

Of course the amount of people working on Iracing compared to LFS makes a difference. I see this situation in the same vain as setup stealing....Scawen could spend time preventing it but within 5 minutes some spotty kid has broken the code and within a week everyone can do it.
I do not agree with stealing software and it would not be how I would play LFS even if today was my first day...but then 24 quid is nothing in todays world of gaming and micro transactions...add-ons...etc

Again...what is to be gained by preventing people stealing it when they will never buy it anyway....why spend anytime coding or whatever when that time could be spent on actual game improvements, as a paid member I do not care about what other people do...only what I can have.

Stealing LFS.... I don't know who'd be all that interested. I mean the people that like LFS already have it.
Racing games may do so-so sales wise on consoles, but on a PC? And LFS in particular is pretty hardcore as far as racing games goes. I seriously doubt it gets pirated all that much. Sure it's out there, but I just don't see people stealing it playing it for as long as what demo players play it.
Coders.... extra coders. If the project was more ambitious than what it is, then yeah more coders would be nice. But I think the way LFS plays out, extra coders would just mean extra arguments and even less getting done and lol more getting re-done.
So let's say S3 finally does get done in my lifetime. What then? Again, I'm not seeing flocks of new players cropping up. I don't see many more people that don't already have an S2 license getting it. And not all that many of the S2 players upgrading either.
After it has been released after a period, where will the interest in S3 be? How long will it be before the servers go back to being ghost towns?
My daughter still plays Unreal Tournament. LOL she's like one of twenty people on the planet that do so.
I think that will be the way of LFS, S3 or not.